Open carry and what you should know before you do it

[Emptymag]

"Most people would rather pretend"

I concur...

[headcase]

Would it be a good idea to mention something about mall policies? As I stated here, I don't believe that mall firearms policies are common knowledge among the general public.

OK done.....

[AirAssaultTrooper]

About two days ago I ran into a guy ordering food from a sandwich shop in Philadelphia.

I was standing behind him in line and I noticed that he kept putting his hand on top of his OC weapon holster. What was stranger, was that he kept pulling his shirt over the weapon, then he would raise up his shirt, then pull it back down. He did this a couple of times. This would not have bothered me much but it was about 3:30 pm and school kids stoping by to get something to eat surrounded us. He was attracting so much attention that it was driving me crazy.

After he ordered I asked the guy, "Hey what do you carry?" It was kind of my way of letting him know that he is making things too obvious and it was being noticed. I am all for OC/CC but here in Philadelphia you need a LTCF either way. There is no need to attract so much attention to yourself. The person told me it was a "40" and walked away. I wish I had a copy of the info posted in this thread to give the guy.

Great information. Thanks!

[headcase]

About two days ago I ran into a guy ordering food from a sandwich shop in Philadelphia.

I was standing behind him in line and I noticed that he kept putting his hand on top of his OC weapon holster. What was stranger, was that he kept pulling his shirt over the weapon, then he would raise up his shirt, then pull it back down. He did this a couple of times. This would not have bothered me much but it was about 3:30 pm and school kids stoping by to get something to eat surrounded us. He was attracting so much attention that it was driving me crazy.

After he ordered I asked the guy, "Hey what do you carry?" It was kind of my way of letting him know that he is making things too obvious and it was being noticed. I am all for OC/CC but here in Philadelphia you need a LTCF either way. There is no need to attract so much attention to yourself. The person told me it was a "40" and walked away. I wish I had a copy of the info posted in this thread to give the guy.

Great information. Thanks!

Maybe he was nervous about OC'ing and couldn't decide if it was such a good idea or not? IDK, sounds a bit weird.

I would like to know why "school kids" being near by entered the equasion for you though. Why is it that kids being in the proximity of an armed citizen suddenly turns the situation into something inherently dangerous, but if it is a cop, all is well in the world? It is something that I have been unable to get my head around, no matter how many times, or from what angle, I study it...

[AirAssaultTrooper]

Maybe he was nervous about OC'ing and couldn't decide if it was such a good idea or not? IDK, sounds a bit weird.

I would like to know why "school kids" being near by entered the equasion for you though. Why is it that kids being in the proximity of an armed citizen suddenly turns the situation into something inherently dangerous, but if it is a cop, all is well in the world? It is something that I have been unable to get my head around, no matter how many times, or from what angle, I study it...

Well, the ordering window was about 5 feet high, the man was about 5 foot 6. The youth were basically at eye level to the weapon. All the youth where at close range within inches. At first I thought I thought that maybe hes just being over protective of his weapon. However, he kept pulling the shirt up, IMO trying to show off what he has to the kids. Or maybe it could have been a "hey dont dare mess with me, im packing type of thing".

I myself was CC at the time and felt comfortable. I have seen others OC and feel alright around kids. However, this young man kept touching his weapon, playing with his shirt, pulling his shirt up, pulling it back down, resting his elbow on the holster.

I just felt like there was something not right about this whole thing. When im surrounded by kids while im OC i act the way I would normally do any other day.

Nothing different, except that Im more prepared. I dont spend extra time to let the others around me know that I have a handgun. Especially since some of them already know because of my actions or the visual OC.

In the guy situation, all it would have taken is for a young 3rd grader to yell "Hes GOT A GUN" and who knows what would have happened next. If he had a LTCF at this point he should have observed the area and chosen to CC. If he decided to OP do it in a way that is natural. Make your weapon part of you.

Hope that makes sense.

[headcase]

Well, the ordering window was about 5 feet high, the man was about 5 foot 6. The youth were basically at eye level to the weapon. All the youth where at close range within inches. At first I thought I thought that maybe hes just being over protective of his weapon. However, he kept pulling the shirt up, IMO trying to show off what he has to the kids. Or maybe it could have been a "hey dont dare mess with me, im packing type of thing".

I myself was CC at the time and felt comfortable. I have seen others OC and feel alright around kids. However, this young man kept touching his weapon, playing with his shirt, pulling his shirt up, pulling it back down, resting his elbow on the holster.

I just felt like there was something not right about this whole thing. When im surrounded by kids while im OC i act the way I would normally do any other day.

Nothing different, except that Im more prepared. I dont spend extra time to let the others around me know that I have a handgun. Especially since some of them already know because of my actions or the visual OC.

In the guy situation, all it would have taken is for a young 3rd grader to yell "Hes GOT A GUN" and who knows what would have happened next. If he had a LTCF at this point he should have observed the area and chosen to CC. If he decided to OP do it in a way that is natural. Make your weapon part of you.

Hope that makes sense.

I wasn't there, so if you say there was something not right about what he was doing, I would have to go with your assessment.

As far as the kid thing goes, I understand what you said here, but I still get the sense from the original post, that the fact that kids were nearby turned the danger factor up, and I am not sure that what you posted in response clears that up.

We all can assume what would have happened, but what I am trying to figure out is why it would have happened. If some guy yelled out the same thing, there would very likely at least be an opportunity to give a calming answer. We all know that if a kid did it, they would have treated the guy like he was standing next to Obama and someone yelled it out.....

I have been trying to get a logical answer almost since I started posting on this forum, and have yet to receive one. I ask as a person who really has a soft spot for kids. I am the most protective person I know when it comes to little ones, my own, or anyone else's, and I can't imagine what goes through some people's minds when a gun is simply present and it isn't on a cop.

I guess I'll keep looking...

[AirAssaultTrooper]

****Please, if you think you have a better thread link to expand on any subject touched here, please post it and I will check it out and add it****
So, you have been thinking about OC(Open Carry), and now you think you are ready......

In this Commonwealth, OC is an unlegislated right. Well, everywhere except Philadelphia, where you need to be Licenced to Carry Firearms in order to carry Concealed or Openly. There are many reasons to choose OC as a carry method, not the least of which is, "Because I can.". If this describes you, please, feel free, but know that there are possible consequences that you really should be prepared for. The choice to prepare is yours. If you choose to prepare, then follow along. I am going to present all the OC knowledge I can in this thread, to help prepare you for the experience. I will be giving general information and advice( I do so from my own research and personal experience- IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, DO I CLAIM TO BE A LAWYER OR THAT THIS INFORMATION AND ADVICE WILL KEEP YOU OUT OF JAIL), and will include links for you to dig deeper. The main points to cover, as far as I am concerned, are Equipment, Training, Awareness, Knowledge, and Interactions.

It is your right to just pick up your firearm, strap it on, and go off about your business OC'ing, if you so desire. BUT, I would suggest you learn all you can before doing so. Start with suggested equipment:
1.) A good retention holster. .
2.) A voice recorder. .
3.) This flyer. Print off a few, carry them with you, and make sure you understand the content. This is one of the best resources you will find. It has good case law references and a wealth of information. LEARN IT, KNOW IT, LIVE IT!
4.) Your LTCF. While a LTCF is not needed to OC anywhere but Philadelphia normally, the convenience of having one is huge. It allows you to be in possession of your firearm in a vehicle, it allows you to carry during a declared state of emergency, it allows you to carry in a Gun Free School Zone, and God forbid your clothing should accidentally cover your firearm while OC'ing, you're covered.
5.) The 2009 MPOETC update pages that relate to OC. Print this and ALWAYS carry it with you when you OC. As lil'dobe pointed out in another thread, it is pretty hard for a cop to tell you it is illegal to OC when his own training manual is put under his nose. Reserve the Gun rights flyers for curious people.(Thanks lil'dobe!) Another suggestion is to remember that if a cop asks where you got this from, you should say it was obtained from the PSP's Right to Know unit. It is the truth and sounds better than, "Duh, I got it off the internets...".(Again, thanks dobe )
Practice with both 1 and 2 until you are comfortable with their operation. Read and understand 3..thoroughly.

This leads right into Training:
1.) Professional training classes dealing with firearm carry are always suggested. The more you train, the better.
2.) OC specific Retention training is strongly suggested. This should, at the very least, consist of Retention drills. While I personally don't believe a gun grab is a very likely scenario for a non-LEO Open Carrier, THE POSSIBILITY DOES INDEED EXIST, and the consequences of not preparing to defend against one can be drastic. Basic Retention training can be as simple as making sure you have an unloaded pistol, and having someone come try to sneak up and take it out of the holster. If you are involved in any type of self defense class or martial arts training, simply asking the instructor to go over some techniques could pay enormous dividends. If you are around the Pittsburgh area, check this thread and contact the principles for further info on any classes that may be upcoming. (I have seen nothing but praise for this class.) Part of that training is going to touch on Situational Awareness..

Awareness:
1.) Whether, or not, you are carrying a firearm, it is a great idea to be aware of your surrounding.
2.) Open Carrying a firearm is an activity that fairly screams for you to be extra aware of your surroundings. While in the grocery store, you are stretching up to grab the last can of beans, totally intent on what you are doing, when the six year old of the lady gawking at your Desert Eagle reaches up to touch the shiny gun because his mother never taught him to respect others personal space. Awkward situation, no? Dangerous? Well, yeah. Maybe the kid has no shot at activating the firearm, but if a six year old could reach out and grab it with you unaware until it happens, who else could do so? Always be aware of your firearm, and your surroundings.

Knowledge:
1.) If you are going to carry a firearm, OC, CC, whatever, KNOW THE LAWS THAT APPLY. DO RESEARCH HERE. Even if you search the forums and come up empty, ask about what you are looking for and someone here will help you. There are more than a few people here who have been OC'ing for quite a while, who know the answer to just about anything you can think to ask...USE THIS RESOURCE!
2.)SEE #1!
3.) It bears repeating, you have the right to OC, whether you follow these suggestions or not, but please, PLEASE do not go out and OC, get into trouble and then come looking for help after the fact, expecting to be treated with kid gloves, especially if you should have known what to do before hand. If you do your homework, accept the risks and responsibilities, then you will find almost unlimited help here if you have a problem.
Some threads that should be required reading for OC'ers:
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...ity-5-9-a.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...heres-why.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ou-can-cc.html (post #9 has a few other links)
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...-why-i-oc.html
There are probably a hundred OC related threads here... While the OCB thread is way long, there is a wealth of information starting on page 15..
OASN~ While this applies to carry in general, for OC'ers it should be way up on the list- RESPECT PRIVATE PROPERTY POLICIES. There seems to be story after story of people OC'ing on private property, getting asked to leave, and then getting indignant about being asked to leave. Private property owners get to make the rules on their property, within the scope of the law. They have every right to tell you you may not be there because you have a gun. Malls seem to be a big issue. I will say this here on the chance that this is the one place someone who wants to OC will look before they do it.... Almost every mall has a no weapons policy. Oc'ing there will get you escorted off the premises almost 100% of the time. It serves no purpose, unless you have a fetish where you enjoy being told to leave someplace. Please don't OC at the mall.


Interactions:
Many people OC everyday with no problems, but there is always the possibility that you will have an encounter, just because someone can see your firearm.
Know the laws. Know your rights. Be comfortable in that knowledge. Be prepared to deal with police, curious people, and hostile people.
Police:
All police officers in Pa., must undergo annual training updates. This year, OC is specifically addressed. The specific info is here
The fact of the matter is that just Openly Carrying a firearm, in a holster, absent some indication of criminal activity, is NOT a valid reason for a police officer to stop you, detain you, arrest you, demand ID, or take possession of your firearm. Whether they will, or not, seems to depend on the officer. If they do, no matter how nice, polite, endearing, or childhood friend like, they seem, you would do well to say nothing other than, "Am I being detained? Am I free to go? I do not consent to any of this.". If they demand that you follow their instructions, comply with them exactly. When you consent to things during a police encounter, you very likely waive your rights. Just don't do it. Watch these don't talk to police part1 part2
1.) If you carry a voice recorder, immediately start it as soon as you are aware of a police presence.
2.) If the police approach you, DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FIREARM.
3.) Everyone will react to a police encounter differently, but you really should be firm about exercising your rights. Do not let them bully you into waiving those rights. Remember that if you were not doing anything illegal, then the police have no right to demand, or take, anything from you. Do not volunteer anything.
Some good stuff here. Explain that what you are doing is completely legal, and show them the MPOETC update that you should be carrying a copy of.
4.) It would be advisable to know a firearm rights attorney's information.
Some examples of police encounters:
Annoying
.
Bad
.
Good
.

Curious people:
If you OC as part of your daily activities, you are bound to encounter at least one person who is genuinely curious about why you are carrying a gun out for God and the world to see. While OC ambassadorship is not for everyone, it helps the cause to be friendly when someone approaches you asking about your firearm. This is a great reason to carry copies of the Gun Rights Flyer with you. If you are going to engage people in a conversation about Pa. Gun rights, please, please be knowledgeable on the subject. Don't pass along any information that you are not sure of, and direct them to this site or Paopencarry.org, for more information. Invite them to do more research on their own. Acting like you know what you are talking about, and perpetuating firearm myths, does about as much damage to our cause as illegal activity does, IMO.
1.) Try to be polite.
2.) Know what you are talking about. If you don't know something, say so and direct them to where they can find out.
3.) If you have a flyer, give it out.
Some examples of encounters with curious people:
Good
.
Annoying
.
Bad
.

Hostile people:
You may well also have encounters with people who, for whatever reason, feel that you are the Devil for carrying Openly. Again, while OC ambassadorship is not for everyone, try to be polite. Remember that if you act aggressively toward someone like this, the fact that you have a firearm may work against you. My general advice for non-LEO encounters is to just be yourself. I am not going to preach about turning the other cheek if some asswipe comes up and interrupts your anniversary dinner to tell you that you are a jerk for carrying like that, all I ask is that you remember, for your own good, that if you become a raving lunatic, it is probably not going to turn out well for you when the inevitable "Man with a gun having a fight" call gets answered. This ties in with situational awareness. Know where you are, what your surroundings are, and act accordingly. I have found that anything you do to respond to people like this, will be a complete waste of time, as anyone who is willing to be publicly uncivil toward someone carrying a firearm openly, is not very likely to be swayed by logic.
1.) Try to be polite.
2.) If you must engage in a pissing contest with someone like this, try to do so in a calm, dry tone.
3.) Do not, under any unnecessary circumstance, reach for or imply that you will use, your firearm.
4.) Try complaining about them to the management of wherever you might be at the time. Turn the tables on these guys for once
5.) Just ignoring them is probably best.
Some examples of encounters with hostile people: (I don't know of any that were other then bad, off the top of my head, if you do, post the link and why)
Bad
.

Case law links
Hawkins
Ortiz



******************Again, if someone sees a glaring omission, please point it out and I will be happy to include it****************

I wasn't there, so if you say there was something not right about what he was doing, I would have to go with your assessment.

As far as the kid thing goes, I understand what you said here, but I still get the sense from the original post, that the fact that kids were nearby turned the danger factor up, and I am not sure that what you posted in response clears that up.

We all can assume what would have happened, but what I am trying to figure out is why it would have happened. If some guy yelled out the same thing, there would very likely at least be an opportunity to give a calming answer. We all know that if a kid did it, they would have treated the guy like he was standing next to Obama and someone yelled it out.....

I have been trying to get a logical answer almost since I started posting on this forum, and have yet to receive one. I ask as a person who really has a soft spot for kids. I am the most protective person I know when it comes to little ones, my own, or anyone else's, and I can't imagine what goes through some people's minds when a gun is simply present and it isn't on a cop.

I guess I'll keep looking...

Good Point. Its kind of hard for me to explain the event. I was happy to see someone OC in Philadelphia, you don't see to much of that around here.

I guess it was just the feeling that I had that something was just not right. I couldn't and still cant put my finger on it. Maybe it was just his nervous behavior, and your right it might have been is first time OC. Because of this my awareness increased and felt a danger level rise. I'm not saying its right, but it is a honest answer. Im also very protective of little ones. And his nervous behavior made me more defensive.

Im wondering if anyone else on this forum ever faced a situation like this.

[jcabin]

Good Point. Its kind of hard for me to explain the event. I was happy to see someone OC in Philadelphia, you don't see to much of that around here.

I guess it was just the feeling that I had that something was just not right. I couldn't and still cant put my finger on it. Maybe it was just his nervous behavior, and your right it might have been is first time OC. Because of this my awareness increased and felt a danger level rise. I'm not saying its right, but it is a honest answer. Im also very protective of little ones. And his nervous behavior made me more defensive.

Im wondering if anyone else on this forum ever faced a situation like this.

When I first started OC'ing I felt like all eyes were on me and my posture was probably a little more aggressive then normal. A year and a half later I walk around like I was wearing boxers and a tank.

Then again, the guy is in philadelphia, cut him a break!

[AirAssaultTrooper]

When I first started OC'ing I felt like all eyes were on me and my posture was probably a little more aggressive then normal. A year and a half later I walk around like I was wearing boxers and a tank.

Then again, the guy is in philadelphia, cut him a break!

lolll Your Right! We are in Philadelphia. FORGIVE ME MY FELLOW 2A Advocates! Ill be a little nicer next time lol

[jcabin]

lolll Your Right! We are in Philadelphia. FORGIVE ME MY FELLOW 2A Advocates! Ill be a little nicer next time lol

sure thing. nobodys asking you to let your guard down.

next time make conversation with the guy

hey, nice gun, whatcha carrying?

I open carry too!