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| Concealed & Open Carry Discuss all aspects of carrying firearms here. |
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LET IT BE CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD - I AM NOT A LAWYER
THESE ARE ONLY MY OPINIONS BASED ON THE CASES CITED - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The PA Courts perceive 3-levels of Interaction between Police and Citizens - - - - - - See AYALA & HAYWARD (PA Superior Court Cases) A) Mere Encounter Questioning can occur anytime/anyplace through a 'mere encounter'. Citizens are not required to stop or respond to these questions. B) Investigative Detention (often referred to as a Terry Stop) With 'Reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot', citizens may be stopped and detained for a brief period without it being arrest. C) Custodial Detention (iow, Arrest) If 'Probable Cause' has been established, the citizen may be arrested. There must be "reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct" before a Terry Stop - - - - - - See HAWKINS (PA Supreme Court Case) However, this standard may be challenged by later cases... ?or those cases overturned? - - - - - - See HALL & STEVENSON & ROBINSON (PA Superior Court Cases) - - - - - - as well as D.M. (PA Supreme Court Case) The US Supreme Court ruled that Officer Safety affords additional Search & Seizure powers (which is beyond those clearly identified and previously recognized by the USSC in the 4th Amendment) - - - - - - See FLA v. J.L., PA v. MIMMS, TERRY v. OHIO (US Supreme Court Cases) Therefore I have deduced the following conditions currently exist due to these (and other) cases: What an Officer observes or discovers is critical to validating their actions... typically, it is best (for you) to minimize in every way possible what the Officer observes or discovers about you (irrelevant of how legal you believe you are acting).... Under the concept of 'Mere Encounter', an Officer may approach you and strike up a conversation anywhere, anytime. However, you are free to ignore their comments or questions and/or leave the area without violating the law or being subject to prosecution. You cannot be stopped & detained 'even briefly' if the Officer has no 'Reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot.' If you choose to interact with the Officer, engaging with them in a conversation, anything you say (and/or do) can & will be used to estabish a 'Reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot' and the information you provided is admissable in court as evidence, even before being Mirandized. You are under 'Investigative Detention' if the Officer already has or you have given them 'Reasonable suspicion that ciminal activity is afoot' or you are stopped for ANY VALID VIOLATION of the law (ANY law, including traffic laws). Once you are under 'Investigative Detention' the Officer's questions may not be ignored. You still have your 5th Amendment Rights against self-incrimination and you may assert those Rights to the Officer and refuse to answer their questions without council present. An 'Investigative Detention' still does not give to the Officer the right to unreasonable search and seizure. The 'Investigative Detention' must be relevant to a 'Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion' of a specific crime by a specific individual and the investigation and detention are to be directed toward that crime and that person. Therefore, if you are stopped on the street for a 'Littering' violation, it does not give the Officer the right to frisk your person for weapons or contraband. Nor, if you are stopped in your vehicle for speeding, does that give an Officer the right to frisk you or search your vehicle. However, under the concept of Officer Safety, additional search and seizure may be allowed to protect the Officer's Safety during the period of 'Investigative Detention'. For instance, under Officer Safety, the Officer may require that you step out of your vehicle and to the side of the roadway. If the Officer discovers, while you are under 'Investigative Detention', that you possess on your person or within your vehicle a firearm, they may presume that that firearm and any other weapon IS an immediate danger to their safety. The discovery may be because you are OCing, or because they observe you are printing while CCing, or you answer yes to their question 'Are carrying a firearm?', or to their question 'Do you have a firearm in the vehicle?'. In fact, TERRY v. OHIO says, "The officer need not be absolutely certain that the individual is armed; the issue is whether a reasonably prudent man, in the circumstances, would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger." They may use their suspicion of a firearm as justification to seize that weapon and conduct a further search for the purpose of Officer Safety. They may do an external clothing search and/or search the interior of your vehicle for additional weapons under this presumption of danger. Furthermore, any contraband or other violations of law that is discovered during the search for Officer Safety can be legally pursued to arrest. On the otherhand, if there is no knowledge of, nor observation of, a gun on your person or in your vehicle (ie., if you are not OCing nor are you printing while CCing nor is a gun visible within your vehicle), Officer Safety can not be used to validate simply searching any person or any vehicle. In other words, the Officer must observe or have Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion that you possess the firearm (or other weapon) before additional search and seizure is valid. You may want to review the In-Service Training material (Legal Update Course 09-201) related to Open Carry that is being used by MPOETC. As to Anonymous Tips, the USSC has ruled in Florida v. J.L., “The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person.” There are basically two tracks that their investigation may take. If the Tip describes ‘predictive behavior’, where the subject of the tip actually does what the Tip says they will, and that ‘predicted behavior’ is not easily known by public means, the Officer may attribute ‘reliability’ to that Tip. However, the Tip must still include actual allegations of past, current, or future criminal activity, in order for the Officer to investigate further (including an Investigative Detention) based on the ‘reliability’ of the Tip. However, if the Anonymous Tip provides only basic information about the subject (such as clothing being worn, or car being driven, or location of the subject) and there is no ‘predictive behavior’ included, or if there is no allegation of an actual crime (past, present, future), the Officer can go no further than ‘mere encounter’ or non-contact observation and investigation. The Officer can not proceed to a Terry Stop (Investigative Detention) without establishing for himself a Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion of an actual criminal activity. Furthermore, even if the Anonymous Tip involves allegations about a firearm, the Officer may only proceed according to these two options – (1) with Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion of an actual crime the Officer may conduct a Terry Stop related specifically to the alleged crime or, without RAS, (2) the Officer is limited to a Mere Encounter (or non-contact) for observation and investigation. Let me reiterate what I said at the beginning --- I AM NOT A LAWYER and nothing posted here should be assumed to be legally correct ... contact a lawyer familiar with PA gun laws for legal advice. As I also pointed out --- In encounters with the police, it is best (for you) to minimize in every way possible what the Officer observes or discovers about you, irrelevant of how legal you believe you are acting. (See the following posts for Referenced Cases)
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... Last edited by ImminentDanger; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:45 AM. |
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EXCERPTS FROM REFERENCED CASES BELOW: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - COMMONWEALTH v. AYALA - FEBRUARY 6, 2002 (PA Superior Court J. S65035/01 http://www.romingerlegal.com/pacasel...s65035_01.html Quote:
(PA Superior Court J. S05037/2000) http://www.romingerlegal.com/pacasel...s05037_00.html Quote:
(PA Supreme Court J-257-1996) Quote:
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... Last edited by ImminentDanger; April 5th, 2009 at 03:59 AM. |
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EXCERPTS FROM REFERENCED CASES BELOW: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FLORIDA v. J.L. - DECEMBER 28, 2000 (US Supreme Court 98-1993) http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-1993.ZS.html Quote:
(US Supreme Court 76-1830) http://supreme.justia.com/us/434/106/case.html Quote:
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EXCERPTS FROM REFERENCED CASES BELOW: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TERRY v. OHIO - JUNE 10, 1968 (US Supreme Court 67-392) http://supreme.justia.com/us/392/1/case.html Quote:
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Read the concurring opinion by JUSTICE HARLAN BUT UNDERSTAND, IT DOES NOT HAVE THE WEIGHT OF LAW This opinion clearly lays out the concept of Officer Safety: If a constitutionally valid stop is made, there is a presumption that a citizen (actually or reasonably suspected of) simply possessing a gun _IS_ an immediate danger to Officer Safety and that immediately and automatically justifies a Terry Frisk... Quote:
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EVERYONE SHOULD READ JUSTICE DOUGLAS' DISSENTING OPINION BUT UNDERSTAND, IT DOES NOT HAVE THE WEIGHT OF LAW This opinion clearly lays out the dangers that the TERRY v. OHIO ruling creates.. Quote:
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... Last edited by ImminentDanger; May 7th, 2009 at 09:38 AM. |
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COMMONWEALTH v. HALL - JULY 24, 2007
(PA Superior Court J. S21021/07) http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost.../s21021_07.pdf Quote:
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COMMONWEALTH v. STEVENSON - FEBRUARY 28, 2006 (PA Superior Court J. A31028/05) http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost.../a31028_05.pdf Quote:
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... Last edited by ImminentDanger; April 5th, 2009 at 04:00 AM. |
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APPEAL of D.M - DECEMBER 27, 1999
(PA Supreme Court J-24-1999) http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost.../J024-99mo.pdf Quote:
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By JUSTICE CASTILLE http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost...J024-99do1.pdf By JUSTICE SAYLOR http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost...J024-99do2.pdf - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTE: The D.M. case above appears to clearly supercede the lower court ruling (ROBINSON below) regarding less need for a RAS before making a Terry Stop when a gun possession is involved. I believe this due to the much later date of adjudication and by a higher court. The D.M. case states that factual (verifiable) information regarding an allegation of an actual crime must be present upon which to base Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion when an Anonymous Call is received regarding a 'Man with a Gun'. It further requires that the information is actually verified by the Officer before a Terry Stop is made. I would extrapolate that the same level of factual (verifiable) information upon which to base RAS of a crime is required even when the Officer has observed for themself a 'Man with a Gun' (where no other illegal behavior is present). I further suspect that the line of reasoning involved in this case (D.M.) would lead to the overturn of the Superior Court cases cited previously that are more recent than the ROBINSON case (HALL & STEVENSON). Those cases essentially attempt to validate the same authority proposed in ROBINSON, that is: That the Officer has less burden for RAS of an actual crime when the mere possibility of a gun possession exists and such possibilty provides immediate and automatic justification for a Terry Stop. NOTE ALSO: The dissent by Justice Castille decries the fact that the PA Supreme Court continues to apply a standard more strict as to the interpretation of required RAS for Terry Stops than applied by the US Supreme Court, even though it is more burdensome on the police officers. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - COMMONWEALTH v. ROBINSON - OCTOBER 31, 1991 (PA Superior Court 600 A.2d 957, 959) Quote:
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... Last edited by ImminentDanger; April 5th, 2009 at 06:06 AM. |
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A Placeholder for additional cases
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In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth....... |
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Great research. Caselaw is so much more informative than "Well I think that . . ." seen in most posts. Hmm . . . how do I send a rep
Thanks.
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My only concern/question is, to the OP and others, is that when a LEO uses and/or believes the officer safety would constitute a further search of vehicle/person. In Lackawanna County I am 100% positive (yes this has been absolutely confirmed) that when your vehicle is stopped or you encounter LEO and they "run" your name for ID purposes, the 911 center sends your name through the system and your LTCF is discovered and the officer is advised (whether you know it or not). This practice happens at just about every encounter to verify IDs.
So, can the LEO then play the officer safety card at every encounter? If so, I would only think it best to offer no info that is not mandatory depending on your situation. Thoughts?
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- Never judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes. If you still don't like them, you're a mile away .... and have their shoes. - Always remember, you are unique ..... just like everyone else. |
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There's that (and thanks for your presentation by the way) and the other encounter possibility...
Namely, if you are stopped and asked if there is a firearm in the vehicle and you respond, "I do not consent to any searches and I wish to exercise my 5th Amendment rights at this time. (or, I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me and refuse all questions without a lawyer present)." Now, logic dictates that there is a high probability you are hiding something, so is the search on? But, I am thinking legally, they cannot search barring any RAS of a crime other than your taking the 5th. Of course, what probably happens is you're searched and anything that is found as 'contraband' is attempted to be suppressed by your lawyer. What a gamble the law seems to have become IMHO.
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Must learn point shooting as I can't sight-in through tears. Requiescat in pace, SFN. |
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