[PAFOA Blog] Pennsylvania seeks to standardize firearm permit process

Pennsylvania seeks to standardize firearm permit process

According to several Pennsylvania news sources,* The Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency (PCCD) is pushing for the standardization of the Pennsylvania “License to Carry Firearms”. Through additional research, PAFOA was able to determine that the PCCD is looking to begin a broader initiative to fulfill a state legislated mandate whereby The Pennsylvania Commission on Crime & Delinquency (PCCD) is required by PA Legislative Act 2005-66 to develop and deploy a statewide “modernized and standardized” license to carry system. In an active attempt to meet the state mandate, on December 21, 2009, the PCCD* made available up to $1,000,000 in grants for upgrades to computer hardware, software and peripherals which will enable the each of the 67 counties in Pennsylvania to issue permits by a standard means. The grant available provides $15,000 to any approved agency to perform the upgrades. The deadline for* application for the funds is January 26, 2010 and the terms of the program run from April 1, 2010 through March 31, 2011.

The goal of the License to Carry (LTC) program is to provide a statewide system to provide a standardized method of completing the application, submitting the information to PSP, obtaining confirmation of a successful transaction with PSP, and issuing the identification card for those individuals seeking a license to carry a firearm.

(source: License to Carry Standardization and Modernization, https://www.pccdegmis.state.pa.us/pc...uncements.aspx)

PA Legislative Act 2005-66 added section (h)(2) to 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109.

The Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall implement, within five years of the effective date of this paragraph, a system in conjunction with the Pennsylvania State Police and the Pennsylvania Sheriffs’ Association to standardize and modernize the process of issuing licenses to carry firearms. Upon implementation of the system under this paragraph, the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall publish notice thereof in the Pennsylvania Bulletin.

Deputy Sheriff’s Training Bulletin on the new License to Carry system (Search for: Deputy Sheriff Training Bulletin 89 July 2009.pdf)

This article, Pennsylvania seeks to standardize firearm permit process, is from the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Blog & Online Magazine.

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Read the full article...

Just a thought. We can save millions in taxpayer monies, which last I checked, we were not in excess of, by adopting the same system that Alaska and Vermont have, and that Arizona is currently trying to implement. That system acknowledges that the constitution, whether it be the Bill of Rights to the Constitution of the United States, or the Commonwealth of PA's Constitution, is the only document needed to carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Azzy

Just a thought. We can save millions in taxpayer monies, which last I checked, we were not in excess of, by adopting the same system that Alaska and Vermont have, and that Arizona is currently trying to implement. That system acknowledges that the constitution, whether it be the Bill of Rights to the Constitution of the United States, or the Commonwealth of PA's Constitution, is the only document needed to carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As my alarm goes off and I wake up, a dream I was having slowly fades from memory......something about saving taxpayer dollars AND acknowledging my rights.

TheF00L....Go back to sleep.....recapture that beautiful dream.

Michigan did that a few years back, it's now called REGISTRATION, they removed the requirement for a 'safety inspection' at the local PD, which was a joke anyway, and replaced it with a computer database maintained by state police.

Just watch for hidden addenda.

I don't like this. The more I think about it the more I realize we as citizens are condoning the trampling of a federally reconized right. PA should compare crime statistics with AK or VT and then just drop the hole game.

Save money, lives, time, effort...

I don't like where this is headed..........

"Just take the fruit.....go on, take it....why can't you have it?....you should.....convince your mate that the fruit is good also........."

If the new "uniform" process is anything like the current "uniform" process, this is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. How about some due process for citizens (before the fact) and criminal penalties for Sheriff's who ignore the current "uniform" process mandated by statute.

Anytime a bureaucrat tries to "standardize" or "streamline" a process, we should all be very afraid.

I actually don't like the idea of taking VT idea for concealed carry, for the simple reason being that they don't issue permits. If all states had VT's law, it would be ok. But, if PA stops issuing permits and allows concealed carry without one.... what happens to my reciprocity if I have to go out of state?

The option stands that you can get a non-resident Florida permit, which you need nothing more than a hunter safety course to apply for ;)

I'm not sure what to think of this either, especially when the suggested new process (emphasis by me):

Quote:

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The goal of the License to Carry (LTC) program is to provide a statewide system to provide a standardized method of completing the application, submitting the information to PSP, obtaining confirmation of a successful transaction with PSP, and issuing the identification card for those individuals seeking a license to carry a firearm.

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I'm all for standardization, but I'd rather apply to a Sheriff that I can vote out in the next election if he doesn't do his job, rather than the PSP, an entity over which regular citizens have no control.

UPDATED: Wow, holy necropost!!!

Still deserves discussion though, PA should be brought out of the Jim Crow era when it comes to firearms... well, most of the US should be too, we only have 3 states that honor our liberties.

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Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

I'm not sure what to think of this either, especially when the suggested new process (emphasis by me):



I'm all for standardization, but I'd rather apply to a Sheriff that I can vote out in the next election if he doesn't do his job, rather than the PSP, an entity over which regular citizens have no control.

UPDATED: Wow, holy necropost!!!

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I'll admit I haven't read through the entire proposal, but my take on just the above is that is would still go through the Sheriff. They submit a PICS request to the PSP, and the PSP give them an answer (just like is done now). I'm not sure I understand exactly what is "changing". The UFA already lays out a "standard" process. The problem is that it's not followed, and there's no penalty for such actions.

I predict the same problems will exist under the "new" system, if it's put into place.

This giving of more power to the PSP over the issuance of LTCF permits is not a new proposal for just this session.

It’s all part of the bigger picture objectives with long term goal is to bring everything under the PSP leadership CNC along with LOTS cash to run the programs.

Some of the 67 sheriff’s may abuse the charter and reputation clause, overcharge etc most DON'T. Still Its just one person that can be held accountable for there officer actions.Theoretically they can be at least voted out of office in the next election cycle.

What to do you with a un accountable appointed bureaucrat doing the job from a central & control location, who don’t care what you think?

Who are you going to call to complain to? sure can't vote them out they are protected by multiple shields layers of bureaucracy.

Especially a centralized ome like the PSP, with almost unlimited resource to fight any lawsuit to challenge their powers as the ACSL & Others have done in the past when taking them to courts trying to make them be accountable with violations of the laws in the UFA.

PSP leadership is all politics, all the time, directly under the governor’s command even though technically the legislators hold the purse string over them. In reality the PSP commissioner are much like the local appointed police chief that only holds their jobs because of being the mayor’s lap dog and doing whatever the mayor says or they lose their jobs very quickly.

As example of WHY the PSP should not have any more authority over the Citizens firearms rights
The recent claimed legislative enhancement of made up regulatory power by the PSP leadership with such things as reclassifying AR-15 and other firearm with the Record Of Sale forms that could be made into a pistol should give you all the fear of giving more powers to the PSP abuse your firearm rights. Look at all the BS they tried pulling, including in my opinion criminal acts and they were not held accountable for their actions or all the tax payers money they wasted for a illegal political objective without any stator authority. How about the upgrade shut down with the PICS system a few years back.

AR-15 OWNERS – take note of immanent PSP regulations changes
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/650...s-changes.html
Scheduled Instant Check Outage 9/2 - 9/6
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/851...9-2-9-6-a.html


The PSP has spent untold millions of tax payers money to keep, collect and maintain a database (non database) of all firearm owners over the many decades some say far back into the early 1900’s.

Till we find a way to take away the PSP money source to keep this illegal gun registry nothing is going to change.

Like getting rid of the extra expensive added layer cost of the Pa Instant Check System (PICS) the same service the NICS will do for free NOTHING is going to change. This PSP cost to keep PICS cost about 6 million a year and they can’t demonstrate a cost to benefit analyze or even crimes that only could be solved with the records kept. PA is broke we are in the red, the state budget is underfunded now we can't afford PICS

You would be surprised at all the political patronage nepotism jobs that are doing this task of keepers of (the incomplete) (non) database of gun owners. We can only guess at what extremely over paid rate they cost us get to accomplish this goal.

What is REALLY need is public hearings to hold the PSP accountable for how the PICS operates, about past abuses, is keeping PICS really in the best interest of the commonwealth & Citizens to keep PICS and or just save the money and go to NICS instead. (The hearing is in the works stay tuned)

This subjects has been discussed with great detail at numerous FOAC meetings over the years on trying to hold the PSP leadership accountable for its actions.

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Originally Posted by Azzy

The option stands that you can get a non-resident Florida permit, which you need nothing more than a hunter safety course to apply for ;)

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But, the FL non-resident permit has reciprocity with fewer states then the regular PA LTCF, so you are still losing out?

If you have to have a permit, which I think the Constitution already gives me the right, then let there be NATIONAL RECIPROCITY...

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Originally Posted by Paradigm

Anytime a bureaucrat tries to "standardize" or "streamline" a process, we should all be very afraid.

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I actually don't like the idea of taking VT idea for concealed carry, for the simple reason being that they don't issue permits. If all states had VT's law, it would be ok. But, if PA stops issuing permits and allows concealed carry without one.... what happens to my reciprocity if I have to go out of state?







______________________
iphone book reader
iphone ebook

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Originally Posted by nikole95.7

I actually don't like the idea of taking VT idea for concealed carry, for the simple reason being that they don't issue permits. If all states had VT's law, it would be ok. But, if PA stops issuing permits and allows concealed carry without one.... what happens to my reciprocity if I have to go out of state?







______________________
iphone book reader
iphone ebook

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Ideally you may still have the option to obtain a PA LTCF as people in AZ have the ability to obtain an AZ one. Thanks for bringing that up.

I understand what you're say about reciprocity with other states...
But this is a national issue not a state one. The U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights already gives me the right to carry, so why does anyone need a state permit? However, I know that the gutless bureaucrats in Washington wont stand up to protect this right. Therefore I can only hope for national reciprocity which does get the states involved. This was voted on last year and I believe it only failed to pass by a very few votes...maybe next time. In the mean time keep writing your representatives and let them know your feelings...maybe someday someone there will get the message.

Hope to clear up a few ideas. I'm in Mich we passed a Castle Doc Bill..few years back. It prevents the criminal and their family from suing you and yours for any and ALL harm or injury done to same, by a lawful person defending his-her person or property. Great Idea, bout time politicians !!!

Then, Mich passed a "shall issue, concealed carry permit". Which means that the state Must show just cause before they can deny your application. Another long overdue law.

What is nice with the CCW or CPL is NOW you do not have to be concerned about a pistol carried in the vehicle. No rules, carry it in the door, on you, in glove box, or on the seat covered. So much more conveniate to transport as well as carry !!

What we ALL have to do ...is to undo the part of Federal Gun Law that 'prohibits' carrying on person or even in the trunk, locked, in your vehicle....
within 1000' of a school !! Think this through, this even pertains to OFF-DUTY officers of da law.

There isn't anywhere one can drive, bicycle or walk in any city or town...that doesn't come within 1000' of a school, eventually. Think on that ! If they were to enforce that law eventually every citizen would be convicted of a Felony. If you are a gun owner.

Wake UP !!

What if your home is within 1000' of a school, you're in TROUBLE, with a capitol 'T'

These whack jobs in the Disneyland - on - the - potomac have got us by the gonads. Now they want to pass the same thing within 1000' of a politician.

How bout WE pass a law THEY can't come with 1 mile of this country !!!

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Originally Posted by davemi

What if your home is within 1000' of a school, you're in TROUBLE, with a capitol 'T'

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If your home is within 1000' of a school, wouldn't you have a LTCF issued by the county, that school is in? Unless the county line runs right between the school property and yours, that is.


Jan

The U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights already gives me the right to carry, so why does anyone need a state permit?

because contrary to popular beliefs the government could care less about your "rights", such as in NY i believe to be able to legally carry You have to be the victim of a violent crime, even then you can be denied the "right" to carry"

As a follow up to the original post, all the 5 bucks of extra money collected from all US from the LTCF permits that was collected & put into modernization fund that was not given back to the sheriff department (for a variety of reasons) was dumped back into the general fund on May 10, 2011. Its gone

Before and part of the May 9-10th rally and HBG lobbying event WE (working with the PA sheriff group) tried unsuccessfully to get all the monies collected up to that point (a million plus) still remaining to paid to sheriff depts. till it was exhausted for the purposes it was intended.

The other part of dealing with this is covered in this post here.

Are YOU Tired of Paying to Exercise YOUR ‘Right to Keep & Bear Arms’? Aug 26, 2010
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...26-2010-a.html


PICS Senate Law and Justice Legislative Hearing May 11, 2011
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...w-justice.html


Along the same concept of improving our rights.

The long term goal would be to create a two tiered system one to remain as basically it is with much needed upgrades to existing language with issuing LTCF permits that is kept for reciprocity agreements with other states.

The other would be to turn back the clock to the pre 1930’s era when PA lead the nation with the first state that required permits to carry firearms when the president of a NRA lobbied for PA (plus several other states legislators) to adopt one. Right before the president of the NRA lobbied congress for the adoption on the NFA and used PA as example of reasonable gun control measures that should be taken.

Presidents of the USA has done us wrong in the past by comprising and doing bad deals, so has the NRA as this is historical fact, like it or not …

.............In case you don’t know what this concept is.
It’s often referred to as Constitutional Carry.

.......... Where you don't need no government permit or ask for permission slip before exercising a Constitutional right.

Several states legislators have already chosen to take this Freedom choice.

We are in the process of trying to make this happen for PA, we are drafting the actual language and shopping for the right sponsor.

Details to follow when available as this will be all out war for moving this in PA, IF you thought 7 years with Castle Doctrine was tough you ain't seen nothing yet..

The prime sponsor is going to take major heat over Constitutional Carry in the media with many other others that will be opposed to the concept.

As far too many, including many gun owners have been brain washed in supporting a government granted permission slip with this being treated as privilege, instead of this being a Right.

So both the proposed language and prime sponsor got to be exactly right before introduction

One of the big major hurdles that we are trying to fix right now is the removal of the no stops with the transportation of unloaded firearms without a LTCF permit. Till this get done, Constitutional Carry is staying on the back burners.

We can really use you help right now for this goal IF you are willing.

2011-12 Getting rid of NO STOPS clause with the transportation of gun w/o LTCF
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...-w-o-ltcf.html

It will never fly! It has been always said that; there is a small minority that will ruin things for the majority. If enough get off our duffs and write to our state reps. as well as show that firearms enthusiast; aren't the ones they need to worry about. We will be able to change things. Being in LE, I can honestly say that no LEO in his right mind would enforce such action. It would only be enforced if there are furtive movements that show a possible act of violence is about to occur. It is all about how it is articulated by the LEO, a mere encounter does not always warrant an arrest. Lets not forget this country was founded by Attorneys and Law Makers alike. We need to stay on top of these issues and address them accordingly as they arise and work with the law makers. So; they will not think that we are a bunch of gun toting uneducated nuts! Let's not cause the problem but be the solution. Outlandish outburst articles are not what we need. The small amount of people whom have caused mass casualties with there actions have brought these new bills about; not the law abiding gun owner. We as the Majority need to keep our heads and fight to keep our rights collectively as we move forward through the clean up of the past wrongs.

I'm confused as to what in this thread you're specifically replying to, so I've got a few questions:

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Originally Posted by Hondo

It will never fly!

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To which post or statement does the "it" above refer to?

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It has been always said that; there is a small minority that will ruin things for the majority. If enough get off our duffs and write to our state reps. as well as show that firearms enthusiast; aren't the ones they need to worry about. We will be able to change things. Being in LE, I can honestly say that no LEO in his right mind would enforce such action.

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What "such action" are you referring to?

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It would only be enforced if there are furtive movements that show a possible act of violence is about to occur. It is all about how it is articulated by the LEO, a mere encounter does not always warrant an arrest. Lets not forget this country was founded by Attorneys and Law Makers alike. We need to stay on top of these issues and address them accordingly as they arise and work with the law makers. So; they will not think that we are a bunch of gun toting uneducated nuts! Let's not cause the problem but be the solution. Outlandish outburst articles are not what we need.

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Which "outlandish outburst article" are you talking about, or are you making a general statement?

Quote:

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The small amount of people whom have caused mass casualties with there actions have brought these new bills about; not the law abiding gun owner. We as the Majority need to keep our heads and fight to keep our rights collectively as we move forward through the clean up of the past wrongs.

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my son belived in his right to carry till he was forced to use his gun the guy my son was forced to shot was a related to a cop you can hear his 911 call on you tube erie parties /joel atkin which is missing 20 to 30 sec also if you go to face book joel atkin on the profile page is what he says happened that day also on the profile page is all the papers supporting my questions please let me know if i have the right to ask these questions and if you would send this to as maNY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS

Anybody know when Philadelphia first issued gun permits? What year? also what rules did you have as an armed security guard prior to 1974??

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Originally Posted by Mdot

Anybody know when Philadelphia first issued gun permits? What year? also what rules did you have as an armed security guard prior to 1974??

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Don't know, but please don't crosspost. I've removed all the other ones.

The entire country should operate under the constitution. No permits, instant reciprocity.

What makes the PSP know that any law enforcement department can't find out?

Ok, sorry wont happen again, just trying to get answers

It definitely needs to be standardized. I am from NY and drove 3 hours this past Friday, to Berks county sheriff's department get my out of state permit. The officer there asked me if my guns are listed on the back of my NY pistol permit. I said yes. The officer then told me that he could not give me an out of state permit. When I asked why he said because PA doesn't list a person's guns on their permit, and NY does. Therefore it's not an exact match to the permit issued in PA. A friend of mine got his out of state permit in Northumberland county last summer without any issues. The offficer at Berks county told me its at the discretion of the sheriff in ewch county whether or not to issue the permit. I have my paperwork and money and NY permit ready to go. It really should be the same rules for every county. Either you will issue them or you wont.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojo2345

It definitely needs to be standardized. I am from NY and drove 3 hours this past Friday, to Berks county sheriff's department get my out of state permit. The officer there asked me if my guns are listed on the back of my NY pistol permit. I said yes. The officer then told me that he could not give me an out of state permit. When I asked why he said because PA doesn't list a person's guns on their permit, and NY does. Therefore it's not an exact match to the permit issued in PA. A friend of mine got his out of state permit in Northumberland county last summer without any issues. The offficer at Berks county told me its at the discretion of the sheriff in ewch county whether or not to issue the permit. I have my paperwork and money and NY permit ready to go. It really should be the same rules for every county. Either you will issue them or you wont.

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That bites and is the first I've heard of them being a problem. First question I have regarding the NY permit...is it a permit to carry concealed or a permit to own and take to the range?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojo2345

It definitely needs to be standardized. I am from NY and drove 3 hours this past Friday, to Berks county sheriff's department get my out of state permit. The officer there asked me if my guns are listed on the back of my NY pistol permit. I said yes. The officer then told me that he could not give me an out of state permit. When I asked why he said because PA doesn't list a person's guns on their permit, and NY does. Therefore it's not an exact match to the permit issued in PA. A friend of mine got his out of state permit in Northumberland county last summer without any issues. The offficer at Berks county told me its at the discretion of the sheriff in ewch county whether or not to issue the permit. I have my paperwork and money and NY permit ready to go. It really should be the same rules for every county. Either you will issue them or you wont.

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Seems like you passed a few othe counties on your way. What's the chance new york is going to issue me a license to carry? Maybe fix new york first. Between new york refugees and new jersy refugees voting for the same crap guns are under constant threat here in Pa. Necro thread bad.