Big question on carrying in bars

[joeybagadonutzz]

I understand it is okay to carry in bars in PA. Although I was on my way home from work a few nights ago and stopped in a local bar for a few drinks. I had about two drinks when two non regular customers were in there getting a little rambunctious. An argument ensued between between 3 gentlemen, while I was looking over, one man had asked me if I "Wanted a piece." I just said no put money down for the keep and left. Well the man then followed behind me into the lot where he proceeded to call me out. I Figured fight or flight, well I chose flight and left. My question is, say that man grabbed a flower pot for instance, since that was the closest thing to him I seen. I pull my gun and shoot the man. now since I had a few drinks could that be used against my judgment in court for self defense? I think I am going to start carrying a bat and pepper spray too. Philadelphia is totally out of hand.

[muskie52]

First off.....there are gonna be some that bash you for drinking and carrying. Only you know how much you can drink before it affects you.

Second.....Though I wasn't there, I really don't think that being threatened with a flower pot would justify deadly force. How big was the flower pot? Once he picks up the flower pot, would you have the opportunity to retreat? If you have that opportunity, you must take it. If he's just standing there holding the pot...run. If he throws it at you....well, if he misses, he's now unarmed and you can't shoot him. If he hits you with it....are you injured? Because after throwing it at you, he's back to being unarmed and I don't think you'd be justified using deadly force unless you were injured to the point where you couldn't defend yourself and/or retreat.

Third.....Even if you were involved in a justifiable shooting, having alcohol in your system couldn't help your cause. And saying that you were in Philly leads me to believe that the powers that be would try to revoke your LTCF (for mixing alcohol & guns).

I'm not bashing or judging you....I just think in this scenario you would have a hard time defending your actions. However....the standard IANAL applies.

[Damage control]

Read.....no study this link.

http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm


There will be a test.


DC

Side note Thanks LRT I got the link from one of your posts.

[mythaeus]

I find that the puritanical idea of not drinking while carrying is usually a do-as-I-say presentation at best. As we are responsible for our own judgment for driving after drinking, we are too responsible for our own judgment in drinking while carrying. It's worthwhile to note that DUI is illegal, DUC is NOT (although your personal character can be called on for LTCF revocation, though I haven't heard of any case to show this). Summarily, bashing those who drink while carrying is pointless and self-righteous as best.

To the question of the OP, the alcohol factor will come down to the jury, as far as I can see. The alcohol factor more than likely requires that the prosecution to produce blood/alcohol level reading, or witnesses to the fact that you have been excessively drinking, or your statement (which shouldn't be given without an attorney anyway). Other self defense factors like fearing for your life, duty to retreat, etc. would play more into it. In your case, you are more capable of running away from that flower pot, shooting him is jail or bankruptcy...most likely both. Alcohol would not have been much of a factor either way.

Now, if he had another "friend" blocking your exit and you truly feared for your life, draw your weapon and act according to his next move. If you had to pull the trigger and prove that you could not retreat and your life was in imminent danger, alcohol won't make a difference, unless while proven that you are under influence AND there is in fact another escape route that you could've taken, but didn't because of alcohol...that's a lot of proof on the prosecution side, but not impossible.

My .02.

Al

[TaePo]

Don't forget that there are always two possible trials.

Even if the criminal trial disregards your alcohol level, or no charges are filed, I am pretty sure a civil attorney will make a big deal about it.

It is also the civil trial that can strip you clean to the bone. You might prefer doing some time over losing everything because of some jackass at a bar instigating a fight.

Just saying. IANAL

[mythaeus]

Don't forget that there are always two possible trials.

Even if the criminal trial disregards your alcohol level, or no charges are filed, I am pretty sure a civil attorney will make a big deal about it.

It is also the civil trial that can strip you clean to the bone. You might prefer doing some time over losing everything because of some jackass at a bar instigating a fight.

Just saying. IANAL

Excellent point! Anyone can sue you for anything in the civil court though.

Al

[Elmar]

It would not look good in court if you were drinking prior to using your firearm. If I drink when I carry I limit myself to one beer that I drink slowly over the time I am there and this mostly applies to restaurants where I am also eating a meal. I don't ever drink to the point I feel any different from the alcohol - the same as when I drive.

[Hawk]

Nothing wrong with "flight", you controlled the situation and won.
I personally don't think guns and alcohol mix in any amount. IMHO, if you're going to a bar packing heat, drink pop!

[beerhunter]

I understand it is okay to carry in bars in PA. Although I was on my way home from work a few nights ago and stopped in a local bar for a few drinks. I had about two drinks when two non regular customers were in there getting a little rambunctious. An argument ensued between between 3 gentlemen, while I was looking over, one man had asked me if I "Wanted a piece." I just said no put money down for the keep and left. Well the man then followed behind me into the lot where he proceeded to call me out. I Figured fight or flight, well I chose flight and left. My question is, say that man grabbed a flower pot for instance, since that was the closest thing to him I seen. I pull my gun and shoot the man. now since I had a few drinks could that be used against my judgment in court for self defense? I think I am going to start carrying a bat and pepper spray too. Philadelphia is totally out of hand.

You obviously made the right choice because you have internet access and you don't have a new one color suit.
Kind of scary that this even crosses your mind, maybe I'm picturing the whole thing wrong?

[headcase]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that you might want to choose your watering holes a bit more carefully.....

Why would you not call the police and report that a man tried to sell you a "piece" in said bar?

Why does it seem so hard for people to understand that just because you are armed doesn't mean you have to try to figure out if shooting someone for calling your mom a whore is justified. A flower pot? How about this...

Use this as a rule of thumb, pull your weapon only if you are in fear of your life or someone else's. If you have to try to reason out if you would be afraid for your life, you almost certainly aren't going to be. If you would be able to truthfully say afterward that this guy tried to:
Rape
Rob
Kill
Kidnap
Or perpetrate some other grievous crime upon your person, then sure, use deadly force on him. I'm going to further go out on a limb and offer that when you stood trial for killing/shooting him, and explained how he picked up the flower pot, after the laughter died down, you would probably hear the words,"Guilty", and then some sort of time frame describing how long you would be in state custody....

A firearm is a deadly weapon designed to cause grievous injury to whatever it is deployed against. After shooting someone, it is very unlikely that you can dust yourselves off and go back and buy each other a beer. It is not the equivilent of getting into a fight and then going home nursing a bruised eye.