LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[truecrimson]

Yeah, but you are using reason, logic, and the law to justify your opinion.

The cop doesn't care about that stuff.

"I don't care what you consent to." -Cop

When the revolution comes, I am going to write that on the firing wall.

IF the revolution comes I hope these guys are not in front of the firing wall. They learned something new. Next time they get asked to check out a man with a gun in a holster he may not have to go through all of this because they have already made the calls and know he is doing nothing wrong.

[truecrimson]

First post here.

To O.P.:
Just curious, but why didn't you ask the policeman if you were free to go when he got past the "Hello sir, how are you today?"
I am interested in starting to open carry, but won't do it if it means I have to be anything but pissed off if I am illegally stopped.

ps I see that there is another H.D. thread here but it involves a manager, not the police.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...-oc-today.html

There are no rules about how you have to act during an OC encounter. You can be pissed off if you want to. You can go with the "Am I being detained?" if you want to. You can refuse to show ID, or even not carry Id, or an LTCF if you choose to. In some circumstances I might do those things.

But I'm a pretty easy going guy, and the vibe I was getting was not JBT. I could have paid dearly for being wrong about that, but I rolled the dice anyway. Sometimes I think about the things I do at work to get things done and how they would look to people not in a medical field. I just 'felt' that officer 1 was going to be cool, but was also going to do what he thought he needed to do. What he had been taught to do. There is a saying: "You will not rise to the occassion. You will default to the level of your training." That's what happens. They are taught to disarm people for safety. They are taught to follow certain proceedures. Until that training changes their proceedures won't change. Now they have received some additional training by being on the radio for half an hour and learning through their own dispatcher, from their own superiors that no laws were being broken. They also learned that OCers can be nice guys just going about their life.

Before we shook hands both Officer 1, and 2 expressed that they liked non LEOs carrying, and were glad I was armed in case something happened. They just had to respond to a citizen request to investigate something. I understand that. If I called the cops for something I would want them to investigate it.

ETA: I don't think the cops would have been involved at all if one had not been in the store. They have never said anything to me the other times I have been there.

[normanvin]

I am glad you didn't get cuffed or further hassled. But I am starting to think that this type of encounter is not exactly good.

If you or I ran up to the same officer, and told him that I saw a guy that looks suspicious. Would the officer go through the same motions? No because the guy is apparently not breaking the law. And we don't arrest people because they might break the law. But we do hassle people when we do not know the law.

[XD45]

sounds like you did a good job, but i must say it hardly sounds like a good encounter. Your rights where def. violated hopefully you file a complaint at the very least.

[MrBi11]

+1 for putting up with it. Hope you follow through with HD HQ, a database of corporate policy letters wouldn't be a bad idea, I know if I ever decide to start OC I will carry a book around with me with all of the ones I can find. I already carry flyers and coppies of applicable state laws.

The Admin here could make a separate forum for this, that is read only [except by admins/moderators] to copy corporate letters to. If the admin is really savvy he could 'alter' the posting date/time to keep the corporate names in alphabetical order.

Just my 2¢, if the Admin here has question re: the posting date trick PM me.

[PennsyPlinker]

TC, I am glad to hear that you did not end up in a small room with bars, but I don't know that you could exactly call this a positive encounter. I am not trying to be critical of your demeanor, and none of us know exactly how we will act until we get into a similar situation, but there are several things I noted about your story that bothered me a little.

Cops have a way - actually a lot of people have the same way - of using interruption as an intimidation device. They start talking over you aggressively in order to get you to comply with their wishes, whether it be an LEO or your girlfriend. This is the point in the encounter where you need to regain the initiative. Just because he interrupts you and becomes a little aggressive, you are not obligated to obey, or even to respond in haste. Stay calm (as calm as possible!) and tell him you are not required to show ID while on foot. Then (this is the regaining initiative part) ask him what crime it is he suspects you of committing. Now he has to respond to your request!

Second, as GunLawyer001 has already pointed out, his rooting through your wallet is a big problem. Most cops I have encountered treat wallets like Superman treats Kryptonite. They absolutely refuse to touch them, but demand that any ID be removed and handed over. This keeps them from getting into trouble over the $100 that was in the wallet, but isn't now.

I would have put up a much larger fuss about being disarmed. As soon as that gun comes out of its holster, the safety level of everyone in the area has just gone down several notches, and these guys need to be reminded of that. Personally I don't think it has anything to do with safety. If he were truly concerned about his own safety and you using the gun on him at any time, you would have been looking down the barrel of his own gun with him screaming at you to get down on the floor. No, it has everything to do with a power play, intimidation, and assertion of authority. This is not to say that you don't have to comply with his order, but you can make sure that he knows you know the real deal. Put the onus on him to explain to you why exactly you need to remove your gun. He has evaluated you already before approaching you, so why now does the gun need to come out and be unloaded? If he really thought that, it would have been the very first thing he did.

Again, none of us knows exactly how we will act in a given situation until we are in it. Going home alive and free is always important and you accomplished that. I am typing my thoughts here in the event that someone else finds themselves in a similar situation, they may have some preparation with some options on how they can act. I am in that Home Depot on a regular basis. I have been in there OC on a number of occasions. I will be contacting the store manager today to tell him the people in Lowes have never bothered me either and that if he doesn't like guns on customers, I will take my considerable home renovation budget elsewhere. I will also follow that up with a letter.

[jahwarrior72]

Officer 1: "Hello sir, how are you today?"
Me: "I'm good, how about you?"
Officer 1: "I'm good. Why are you wearing your gun like that?"
Me realizing my recorder and cell phone are in the car: "I always wear my gun like this."
Officer 1: "Do you have a carry permit?"
Me: "I have a License to carry firearms, but you don't need one to carry openly on foot in Pennsylvania."
Officer 1: "Do you have some ID?"
Me: "Yeah."
Officer 1: "Let me see some ID."
Me: "No."

i changed it, just a little, to show how the whole encounter should have ended. what that cop did was unaceptable. i'd be calling his dept. up with the quickness.

[headcase]

Tru,

I get that you feel they were nice guys just doing their jobs, but that isn't correct. Not knowing the law, and feeling they need to disarm and detain you while they "figure it out", is one thing. I don't like it, but I understand it. After finding out you were doing nothing wrong, they still kept you disarmed and walked you to your car and placed your property in it, property that should not have been in their possession. They did not learn shit. They became aware of something that they were not aware of prior, but they didn't learn a damn thing.

[deputy]

I don't like the fact that an off-duty cop began a search of your person in public. This issue is for and on-duty officer. Clearly most LEO have off-duty powers, but that extent should be to call 911 and be a good witness, unless the situation dictates intervening ie: shooting severe beating etc. It seems now that they are usurping their powers now off-duty as well. There is no reason whatsoever that the cop had to take take your weapon and carry it out for you. This shit pisses me off.

[shefearsnothing]

You did well for someone who was willing to put up with it but I'd have done it along the lines of some others. As soon as he asked if I had a conceal carry permit I'd have asked if I was being detained. I see no need to correct them as it is their job to know the correct terminology and what goes along with having a LTCF. I know, I know, I know. It's wonderful that you educated them. Really, it is! I mean that. At the same time....this guy went on to completely violate your rights...he wasn't even ON DUTY which he admitted to you. That, I simply would NOT stand for. That's just me though. I am not condemning you or anything.