OC: Parallels Between Police and Citizens

[paul]

I hope I'm not about to throw fire on the flames, but there have been quite a few references to police gun grab incidents
lately as a sort of warning against the perils of OC amongst the private populace. I don't think that most people are using
these accounts to grind their personal axes or dissuade people from OCing. Many just use these news stories to point
out, and rightly so, that as a baseline there are elements of OC that any responsible person should consider before
deciding to carry in this manner. But many are not all, and I'd like to take this chance to reply.


I've never really laid out my opinions on this facet of the debate because it's kind of hard to express simply, and I knew
it would take some time to sit down and work through it logicially. So bear with me, this is going to be a very long post.


Basically I think that peoples opinions on the likelihood of a gun grab are artificially inflated because we tend to only
see the similarities between police who mostly carry openly private citizens who OC. But I think that while the method
of carry is similar, the motives behind a criminal grabbing a cops guns and them grabbing a private citizens gun are very
dissimilar. Keep in mind that to date, no one here has been able to cite an instance of a private citzen having their gun
stolen or turned on them because they were OCing.


It's not merely that a Police officer deals with far more shiatbags every day than you or I, or even that an officer is
going to have a mindset that is more geared towards intervention than simple defense, both of those things are
certainly contributing factors, but I feel that the police officers status as a sworn agent of the state adds a dimension
that doesn't exist when an altercation is between two citizens.


If a bad guy gets into it with a citizen he's only in it against the citizen, and in some ways from a purely cold blooded
standpoint it makes it more dangerous for the criminal, police have standard operating procedures and more inhibitors
on use of force, be they training or even just media blowback. A private citizen who is the victim of a crime is more or
less a cornered animal, and if that animal turns out to have claws the crime is likely to not go as smoothly as the
criminal would like. But a when a perp gets involved with a cop, they're working within the framework of someone who
wants to make an arrest and has a whole array of options when it comes to employing non lethal force, and who also
has in place very strong disincentives toward using deadly force if it can be avoided.


With an armed citizen, to put it in poker turns, there are a lot of outs, if the flop doesn't turn out to your advantage you
can just fold, you're not all in until you say you're all in.


If you try to make an easy buck off Joe Schmoe and then Joe pulls out a gun, or even wilder, Joe Schmoe turns out to
be packing a gun in (gasp!) plain sight, you can just disengage, theres no disincentive, no other motivation than self
preservation needed to turn tail and get the fark out of there. I know a lot of you will look at this and say, well, there's
your incentive to try a gun snatch right there, Joe probably doesn't have backup coming and the force of law behind
him. But criminals just like anyone else, they avoid uncertainty. Surveys of convicts imprisoned for violent crimes
indicate a majority of criminals fear an armed citizen more than the police, and why wouldn't they? The police are a
known element, the police aren't as liable to just start shooting, they are (for the most part) fair and professional,
because it is drilled into them that they are accountable. How Joe will react is anyones guess.


But even when it comes down to police incidents, except in very rare cases, people aren't rushing them out of the blue
and snatching their guns like people here have opined may happen to civilian OCers. Almost all gun grabs that involve
police are perpetrated by people who were already caught. The police either have them in custody or are attempting to
take them into custody, and this I feel is the fundamental difference that makes most any conclusions you might make
about one based on the other very shaky.


What it comes down to is that if they are in it with the police they are in it for the duration, there's no out, easy or
otherwise. In these circumstances, who's the one in the corner?
The police aren't like Joe, once you are caught, the full force of the system is brought to bear on you. Theres no
getting out of it. How many times have you heard the sentiment expressed in the media or news report, a bad guy
says "I'm not going back to jail"? For most people, even career criminals, jail is the end of the line, it's what we used to
call in the typical army undstated sense of humor "a signifigant emotional experience." For many people, it's just about
the end of the world. So when a criminal gets caught, the balance of power has shifted. Joe Schmoe isn't going to
come find where you live if you turn around and walk away, but most of the time once a cop has you, you are had.


People forget this because they are the good guys, but the officer is the aggressor when an arrest is being made. You
are being taken against your will, the officer is an obstacle to your freedom, and with some people, especially the type
of person not terribly concerned with social mores, if you can't get around an obstacle, you go through it.


Not to belabor the point, but to a criminal, an officer is other, the enemy, not one of your kind, and not prey, they
are coming to put hands on you, put restraints on you, and put you in a box somewhere. So sometimes people fight,
it doesn't take bravery, just fear and adrenaline and the lack of other options.


So I guess my point is that to say that retention issues for a private individual who OCs are identical to that of an officer is
to ignore quite a bit of the equation. Anyone who advocates similar training and equipment, well that's perfectly fine with
me. To keep this perfectly clear, you'd be absolutely correct to say that the purely physical realities of gun
retention are identical for police who carry openly and civilians who open carry. This being true there is a world
of difference between civilian OC and police OC, but the purely physical has clouded the issue in many peoples minds.


Who I take issue with is anyone who would attempt draw too close of a parallel between these similar but distinct types
of crimes. In the final analysis I think it's safe to say that the likelihood that the citizen OCer will ever face a gun grab
attempt has been greatly overstated. These exaggerations may be the result of honest mistakes, just your every day
garden variety "failure of introspection", without a doubt it's a common one in any debate. I just hope that in the best interests
of the issue at large everyone engaged in the discussion would strive to remember one the basic rules of logic and analysis,
Correlation does not imply Causation,
especially since this particular logical fallacy is the one we see constantly used by anti gunners who would use it to deny
all of us the right to keep and bear arms, regardless of how you choose to carry.

To sum up a very long winded post:
If you don't think it's tacticool, fine, if you worry about what the neighbors might think, fine, if you just want to avoid being
hassled by the occasional uninformed police officer, hell, that's probably the best argument yet. But please, please don't
be the guy who tries to defame something he doesn't understand based on an appeal to fear and muddled logic.

[Pa. Patriot]

Yes, this has been pointed out in prior threads. Maybe not as complete and well written out though

To me, police gun grab stats do nothing to relate the likelihood or frequency of your gun being grabbed, for the differences between the police and non-police that you mention.

All it means to me is that yes, gun grabs can and do happen.

[VMJade]

Good crap, that was well put. Would send rep if I didn't have to spread the love some more.

You ought to sit down and think things through more often! Thoughtful, nuanced, overall a perfectly formed argument.

Can I put in a vote for this to be sticky'ed or put in the articles thread?

[knight0334]

Whats also failed to be mentioned is that a BG who grabs your gun is most likely already armed and/or is going to have the drop on you to begin with - thus leaving you as nothing but a target if you go for a open or concealed firearm.

Way too many people out there with tacticool advice that are nothing but Soldier of Fortune or SWAT magazine readers, maybe at most have certificate from a tacticool school(remember, those who cant - teach). If guns grabs are so popular then you'd see alot more cops and nonLEO's getting grabbed up. Its so easy to highlight a couple isolated occurrences and make a holy terror out of something that the odds are you'll win the PowerBall first before it happens.

[Delco Sig]

I think the idea that police are more susceptible to gun grabs is easily supported by a quick look at typical police duty holsters versus those chosen for OC/CC.

A quick glance at the Blackhawk web site reveals the Sportster Serpa:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=4135&C=C2004

And the Level 3 SERPA Auto Lock Duty holster:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=44H1&C=C1069


Apparently even major holster manufacturers recognize that police are more likely to be the "victim" (I use this term loosely) of a gun grab than a CC/OC'er.

[TonyF]

To me, police gun grab stats do nothing to relate the likelihood or frequency of your gun being grabbed, for the differences between the police and non-police that you mention.

I agree. Which is why I've never tried to make any correlation between LE and civilian OC.

[edstephan]

Repped you for the excellent post
Ed

[lprgcFrank]

Outstanding post!

[headcase]

That is exactly what I have been trying to say, in every post on the subject I have made. Well put. Very well put.

[paul]

I agree. Which is why I've never tried to make any correlation between LE and civilian OC.

As ever, your exemption from my OC rants remains in effect, I actually tried to throw in a few disclaimers about retention training because of things you, Carnes and others have said before, even if I personally feel comfortable where I'm at right now. Despite the probability of a gun grab happening being tiny, the result if it did might well be disastrous. Anyway, we've hashed this out before, the original post was aimed more at people who argue a point without thinking it through, or try to seize any point that seems to line up with their emotional response and then defend it to the death. Like I said in another post, Logic First, talky talky later.

and thanks to all for the comments, but I wrote it mostly for myself,
I never know what I think until I read what I wrote.