Can you be denied because of past drug use

[1988 Olds]

Hey guys one of my friends got denied for his permit to carry the other day.
He has to send in the letter to find out why but he asked me if I had any idea since he knows I visit this site daily. To be straight honest with you guys he use to be addicted to drugs (herion) but has been clean for about a 1.5years now. He's on a better path now and is doing whats right for his life. In the past he went to 3 different rehabs before he finally figured out he needed to be clean. Is this a possible reason he could be getting denied. I wasn't sure his addmision to the rehabs was even recorded with the state. I really have no idea how the whole system works. Thanks

[fnp9usp]

short answer...YES.

[streaker69]

Hey guys one of my friends got denied for his permit to carry the other day.
He has to send in the letter to find out why but he asked me if I had any idea since he knows I visit this site daily. To be straight honest with you guys he use to be addicted to drugs (herion) but has been clean for about a 1.5years now. He's on a better path now and is doing whats right for his life. In the past he went to 3 different rehabs before he finally figured out he needed to be clean. Is this a possible reason he could be getting denied. I wasn't sure his addmision to the rehabs was even recorded with the state. I really have no idea how the whole system works. Thanks

Question 36

36. ARE YOU AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A HABITUAL DRUNKARD, OR WHO IS ADDICTED TO OR AN UNLAWFUL USER OF MARIJUANA OR A
STIMULANT, DEPRESSANT, OR NARCOTIC DRUG? YES NO

If he answered that truthfully, then yep, he'll be denied, and if he had any convictions for drug use/possession then he'd be denied too.

[1988 Olds]

Thanks for the replies so far...

He hasn't used for a year and a half so I would say the answer to #36 is NO, and I'm sure he put NO on the application. He has also never been convicted for any use/possession of drugs.

[streaker69]

Thanks for the replies so far...

He hasn't used for a year and a half so I would say the answer to #36 is NO, and I'm sure he put NO on the application. He has also never been convicted for any use/possession of drugs.

Then the question would be, are Rehab centers considered "Mental Health Facilities" as listed in Section 41. I bet the state is considering them as such.

[Curmudgeon]

Question 36



If he answered that truthfully, then yep, he'll be denied, and if he had any convictions for drug use/possession then he'd be denied too.

It has little to do with the facility, or the type of facility. It has to do with the word "committed", as in...

35: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED TO A HEALTH CARE FACILITY FOR A MENTAL CONDITION, OR ADJUDICATED
INCOMPETENT/INCAPACITATED?

And...

41. I have never been convicted of a crime that prohibits me from possessing or acquiring a firearm under Federal or State law. I am of sound mind and have
never been committed to a mental institution or mental health care facility.

*Bold by me, for emphasis.

[MDJschool]

he use to be addicted to drugs (herion) but has been clean for about a 1.5years now.
In the past he went to 3 different rehabs before he finally figured out he needed to be clean.

He has also never been convicted for any use/possession of drugs.

* * * * *

short answer...YES.

a

If he answered that truthfully, then yep, he'll be denied, and if he had any convictions for drug use/possession then he'd be denied too.

Then the question would be, are Rehab centers considered "Mental Health Facilities" as listed in Section 41. I bet the state is considering them as such.

Why all the misinformation?

I'm looking at an SP 4-127 (8-2007). Question 36 reads: ARE YOU AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A HABITUAL DRUNKARD, OR WHO IS ADDICTED TO OR AN UNLAWFUL USER OF MARIJUANA OR A STIMULANT, DEPRESSANT, OR NARCOTIC DRUG?
For the purposes of 18 Pa.C.S. 922(g)(3), that word "is" is very important. Note that 922(g)(3) reads "who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));". Compare this with the PA prohibitor at 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(1)(vi): "An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug." "unlawful user" and "addicted to" are not actually defined in federal or Pennsylvania statutes. Although I don't think we have any case law on 6109(e)(1)(vi), see U.S. v. AUGUSTIN (3rd Cir. 2004), regarding 922(g)(3), which requires the contemporaneous use of drugs and possession of firearms. The ATF tried to define "an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance" at 27 C.F.R. 478.11, but the Augustin court put the permissible inferences into doubt. 478.11 claims that the following inferences are among the permissible: "An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; multiple arrests for such offenses within the past 5 years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year."
For further reading see:
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/725...tml#post904370
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...ml#post1083815

Question 35 states: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED TO A HEALTH CARE FACILITY FOR A MENTAL CONDITION, OR ADJUDICATED
INCOMPETENT/INCAPACITATED? and 41 states in part "I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution or mental health care facility."

I am not aware of a scourge of PSP denials caused by a misreading of "involuntarily committed". Entering rehab on one's own isn't really being involuntarily committed, and I don't think even being ordered as a part of probation/plea-deal/whatever to seek outpatient treatment is being 'involuntarily committed', or if it is, it's not to mental institution or mental health care facility (which I don't think is defined anywhere). You find the specific wording of 6109(e)(1)(v) is "An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution." and 922(g)(4) reads "who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;"

Ultimately the form has to be pursuant to carrying out the UFA and TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 of the USC.

[1988 Olds]

MDJschool - Great post.

He has never been involuntarily commited to the rehabs. He has always gone in on his own will and pressure of me and my parents. My mom at one point tried to get the cops to force him to go and she was told he has to commit himself to go. Also he has never been put into rehab because of the state or any programs that may be offered by the courts. I'm hoping when he gets his denial letter back that will help us figure more stuff out.

[headcase]

Sounds like he failed the PICS check, and was told to submit the challenge form, correct? If so, he will find out what the problem is when he submits the form. If he was arrested, but not convicted, for something that would be prohibiting, they likely don't have a record of the outcome and are denying until it is cleared up.

If he has not received his denial letter, how does he know he was denied? Without the specific reason, we can only speculate. If his rehab was an issue, I would assume it would have been denied under the character and reputation clause, not the committment clause, but again, I don't know because we don't have enough information to investigate.


Let us know what the letter says, and what the outcome is.


And to add to MJD's sentiment, why are any of you guys answering when you obviously have no clue what you are talking about? If you know, by all means help out, but if you don't, STFU and stop giving erroneous answers.

[max384]

Hey guys one of my friends got denied for his permit to carry the other day.
He has to send in the letter to find out why but he asked me if I had any idea since he knows I visit this site daily. To be straight honest with you guys he use to be addicted to drugs (herion) but has been clean for about a 1.5years now. He's on a better path now and is doing whats right for his life. In the past he went to 3 different rehabs before he finally figured out he needed to be clean. Is this a possible reason he could be getting denied. I wasn't sure his addmision to the rehabs was even recorded with the state. I really have no idea how the whole system works. Thanks

Well, I had a bunch of posts tagged to reply to, but MDJ pretty much cleared them up.

If the sheriff that processed his paperwork knew of him and knew of his past drug abuses, he could have denied him because of the "character clause." If this is the case, your friend may have a tough time convincing this sheriff (or a court) that he truly is clean and that his 'character and reputation is such that he would be unlikely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.'

Do you know who he put down for his references? I was a reference for several friends' LTCF applications in Columbia County, and the Sheriff called me for each of them. He asked me a few quick questions about them including if they were drug users. Is there a chance one of the references could have mentioned his past drug use and spooked the Sheriff into denying his application?

I'm not saying the sheriff would be right or wrong in doing so assuming that was the case, but we all know very well that it happens (in other words, I'm attempting not to start a debate about the sheriff's ability to deny an applicant because of the "character clause").

These are just ideas to keep in mind. Of course, your friend will find out soon enough what the real reason was for his denial.