Open Carry and The City of Philadelphia - UPDATE Post #149

[ViperGTS19801]

Many of you will be familiar with my recent negative encounters with the Philadelphia Police Department, in which I've been detained twice and also had my firearm and extra magazines and ammunition confiscated.

The first encounter has been discussed here: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...-sgt-39th.html

The second, on South Street, where my firearm was confiscated because I "refused to conceal," is here: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...d-conceal.html

During the following weeks from the first incident, I filed a complaint with the Internal Affairs department for the PPD. Just when I had almost lost hope for hearing back about it, I got a phone call a couple of weeks ago from a Sergeant from PPD IA. She told me that she was int he process of collecting information on the incident from outside the Art Museum and would like to let me know that she would be contacting me again in the near future to set up a meeting between she and I to discuss, and hopefully resolve, the complaint.

Now, this phone call came after my most recent interaction with the PPD, wherein my Ruger was confiscated because I "refused to conceal" it (even though I was never asked to do so but that's not the point). After getting some opinions from a few other 2nd Amendment enthusiasts, I decided to bring this incident up with the Sergeant as well. I explained what happened and gave her the incident number from my Property Receipt. She said she would look into it and would call me back.

A week and a half or so goes by and I haven't heard back yet. I figured I would give her a call to see if she had any updates, and the conversation that took place nearly knocked me off my feet.

It went something like this (paraphrased):

"Hello Sergeant, this is Mark ********, and I am calling to see if you had any updates in regards to what you and I spoke about a couple of weeks ago, about the police stopping me for carrying a gun?"

"Yes, hello Mark, I am actually still getting some information together. See, here's the thing - it's the Philadelphia Police Department's internal policy that states the open carry of a firearm is prohibited. However, after reading some conflicting policies and case law, it's been made pretty clear to me that this policy is null and void since Pennsylvania law supersedes city law when it comes to firearms. The officers who stopped you by the Art Museum gave you your gun back because who they spoke to on the phone gave them this information, but the officers on South Street were only complying with department policy, and it looks like they didn't know the state law supersedes all."

"Okay, so you're telling me that you do understand that the open carry of a firearm is legal within city limits as long as the carrier has a License to Carry Firearms?"

"Yes, yes it is - however, there seems to be a lot of internal confusion and contradictions relating to this. What I am doing right now is I am getting in touch with some of the department's lawyers and we are going to try to get the process started of making sure Department policy is brought into compliance with State Law. Now, it's my understanding that you had a photocopy of your firearms license, right?"

"Yes, I did. It was my understanding until just yesterday that I only needed to carry 'proof of licensure,' not the actual license, to provide upon lawful demand. Someone just showed me the most recent copy of the statute and as it turns out, the wording does say that one needs to have the actual license on them while carrying in the city."

"Okay. The police officers confiscated your firearm because you had it carried openly, but there's nothing wrong with open carry, so they shouldn't have taken it on those grounds. However, they did have the power to confiscate it because you were not carrying your original license, even though that is not why they took it." She made it clear that although they could have taken it for one reason, they were wrong for having taken it for the other. "So here is what I want to do. I am getting in touch with some of the attorneys who work for the PPD. It's pretty clear that some of the policies need to be changed here, and I will give you a call back, probably by the end of the week, to go over this with you." Then, she said something that made me grin. "This all started with your complaint. As a result, that complaint is setting the precedent here, and is hopefully going to make things change to be in compliance with State law."

After a little more chit chatting, I asked her another question, which is, to me, rather important.

"So, all that being said, where do I need to go and who do I need to talk to in order to get my gun and extra magazines back?"

"Well, normally someone would have to go through the Philadelphia Police Commissioner to get their gun back. But, let me make a few phone calls to see how this is all going to turn out. It's really complicated and they shouldn't have taken the gun on those grounds anyway, so I will give you more details the next time we talk."

Progress may be being made here, folks.

[crlovel]

Good job, Mark.

[NikeBauer21]

Seems like some great progress! Good job in handling it!

[ViperGTS19801]

Thanks. Hopefully, this ball will keep rolling, and in the right direction for our freedoms. I will post an update again when I can, after I talk to the IA Sergeant again.

[ungawa]

Interesting. Wonder if it's a good idea to post the IA name or not? Don't know, just thnking out loud.

I sorta find it hard to believe that a sergent is going to clean up the PPD with a few phone calls but I certainly don't know how Philly or IA work. But they certainly sound driven and confident.

Rep sent.

What was this stuff about needing the actual license on your person vs. a copy?

[Daycrawler]

keep up the good work and let every one know what happens!
GREAT JOB!

[ViperGTS19801]

Agreed. I removed it. She seems to be on our side, so I don't want to bite the hand, you know?

[GregorOneEye]

Hey, Great Job!

[normanvin]

Interesting.

Do Philly cops not get the same training as the rest of the state?

[/dev/null]

Interesting.

Do Philly cops not get the same training as the rest of the state?

Philly cops Do not get the same... fixed it for ya!

Seriously, Its pretty well covered in the last training manual I saw posted here. If this Sergeant can clean things up and get Philly turned around.... can we nominate her for Mayor or something?