Negative encounter with PPD this afternoon - schooled a Sgt. from the 39th

[ViperGTS19801]

So, the humidity finally broke, and temperature is much more bearable, so with the weather being so nice I had some energy to burn off. I packed the bike into the car and headed down to Kelly Drive.

I parked at the Falls Bridge and rode all the way down to the Art Museum. As I went under a bridge, there were three bicycle PPD officers stopped on the side of the trail, watching some of the rowboats go by. I rode right on by, but little did I know that twenty minutes later, they would be harassing me.

Anyway, I rode down to the Art Museum and took a break. Parking the bike, I sat on a bench, with my earbuds in, listening to Pandora on my phone.

After a few minutes of just sitting there and relaxing, one of the three officers I rode by earlier walked up from behind me on my right side. "Yo!" he says.

I pop out an earbud and greet him.

PPD1: "Hey, do you really think it's a good idea to have your gun showing like that?"
"Well, it's the way I feel the most comfortable."
PPD1: "Can I see your permit?"

My first reaction, and as I started to say, was that I don't need to show him my LTCF - then I remembered that I was in Philly, durr. Since it's a requirement to have an LTCF, and he didn't seem to be being anything other than friendly, I started to take out my wallet.

As I did so, I also reached into my other pocket and took out my voice recorder. Turning it on and placing it in my chest pocket, I informed the officer that the remainder of the conversation would be recorded. He said I can record anything I want.

Immediately after I handed him the photocopy of my LTCF which I carry around, he told his partner to "Grab the gun." One of the other officers began to struggle with the thumb break on my holster.

"Excuse me sir, I don't consent to this --"
PPD1: "It doesn't matter what you consent to!"
"EXCUSE ME, I don't consent to you taking my property without my permission."
PPD1: "Well, until I figure out what you have..."

After figuring out the holster, they cleared the weapon and locked it open, placing it in one of the cute little packs they have attached to the back of their bicycles. They also took one of my two spare magazines.

PPD1: "So you just like to carry your gun and expose it to everybody --"
"I'm not 'exposing' it, I'm simply carrying it the way I feel most comfortable."
PPD1: "Okay, well you have headphones on so how are you going to tell if someone's walking up behind you?"
"Obviously I'm not, the way you snuck up behind me and startled me."

For the record, when I am at rest, my elbow is usually resting on my holster, so for those of you who want to stop me here and yell at me for my SA being less-than-acute for a few minutes, I had my self covered.

PPD1: "Well, would you want another person doing that? Taking your gun out --"
"You know what? I really don't feel comfortable with this conversation. Am I being detained?"
PPD1: "Yes."

At this point, the Sergeant chimes in.

SGT: "Yes, you are."
"On what charge? With RAS for what?"
SGT: "Open carry is prohibited in Philadelphia."
"Unless you have a license to carry firearms."
SGT: "You can carry a concealed firearm."
"Okay, I have an LTCF, which, according to Title 18, officer...I'm sorry, Office Bonk?"

I had to stop and really read his shirt. Sergeant Bonk. Lawl.

SGT: "Yes."
"Title 18, §6109* specifically states that the carry of a weapon within Philadelphia city limits, because it's a city of the first class, is prohibited without an LTCF. I have an LTCF which means the carrying of my weapon is not prohibited. It does not differentiate between 'open' or 'concealed' carry. That is not a 'concealed carry permit,' it's a 'license to carry.' Open carry is legal in Philadelphia if you have a valid LTCF."
SGT: "No it's not."
"Yes sir, it is."

Let me take a moment to correct myself. I referred to §6108 above. In the stress of the moment, I mistakenly called it §6109. Flame suit on.

The first police officer decided to chime in.

PPD1: "He's probably one of the smartest people that's ever been around, so I'd prolly listen to 'im."
"Well, you know, that's a real shame, because it's pretty clear the doesn't understand the law the way it's written. You know, I really don't appreciate being harassed."
PPD1: "Do you have your license on you?" Referring to my driver's license.
"Yes I do."
PPD1: "Can I see it please?"

At this point I figured that since it was clear they were detaining me, it'd be in my best interest to be somewhat cooperative. I'd like to get my gun back at some point, you know. I took out my driver's license and handed it to him.

PPD1: "Thanks."

At this point, the Sergeant walks off and makes a phone call, with my LTCF and DL in hand. After a few moments of standing around and watching everyone on the trail look over to see what's going on, the first officer spoke up again.

PPD1: "Do you have any other weapons on you?"
"No sir."
PPD1: "None? You have no other guns?"
"No."
PPD2, who'd been silent up until this time, observing: "Any knives?"
"You know what? I'm going to exercise my 5th amendment right to not speak to you gentlemen."

This did not please the second officer, who shrugged and gazed off into the distance.

PPD1 walks over behind me. "Do me a favor, spread your legs for me."

He does a half-assed pat down.

"I do not consent to this treatment."
PPD1: "It doesn't matter what you consent to."

Then he gets cocky. "You should put that down - I'm Officer McCuen, badge number 2007. Spell it right or you won't be able to file the complaint. Thirty ninth district."

I asked PPD2 for identification and he ignored me. I had to walk around in front of him to see his name was Officer Murtha, BN 4571.

A few moments passed, and the Sergeant was still on the phone.

PPD2: "Is the address that's on your ID card your current address?"
"I don't wish to speak with you."

On second thought, it occurred to me that the address on my DL is actually not current, so I did end up taking out my change of address card and showing it to them. The wrote down the relevant info and handed it back.

Several more moments of standing around looking at each other while the Sergeant figured out what to on the phone, forty feet away, my LTCF and DL in hand. Finally he came back over, the conversation with his superior completed.

SGT: "Um, when you obtained your permit, didn't they tell you that you're supposed to cooperate fully with law enforcement?"
"I abide by the law, Sergeant."
SGT: "I understand that. But what I'm saying is when officers approach you and ask you questions about your ID..."
"Well, the officer approached me to ask me questions, which I answered. Then my property was taken from me without my consent, and then I was detained, without committing any crimes."
SGT: "You think we shouldn't detain somebody with a gun until we find out if they have a permit on em?"
"Did you read your Municipal Police Officer's training update? Which says that open carrying of a weapon does not give you reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed?"
SGT: "So...what you're telling me is..."
"What I'm trying to do is mind my business and get some exercise on my bike in a beautiful Philadelphia park."
SGT: "No no no, I understand that, but what you're telling me is, if I see someone with a firearm, I'm not supposed to stop and ask them to show the proper paperwork for that firearm?"
"You know, I don't have a problem providing you my LTCF because that's something that's contingent on carrying in Philadelphia."
SGT: "Okay."
"...which I did. I have no problem with that. Being told that I'm being detained and having my gun taken away..."
SGT: "If you want to leave your gun here, that's fine! You're free to leave at any time you want, sir!"
"You've taken my property from me without --"
SGT: "While we're identifying you and verifying the status of your license, yes we're gonna remove the gun from you, we're not gonna let you sit there and have a gun."
"Have you 'verified the status of my license,' then?"
SGT: "Yeah."
"May I please have my property back so I can go back to my ride?"
SGT: "...we stopped you and investigated you. It's a part of the policy. As soon as we get done, we're gonna give you your gun back, your magazines, your permit and your license."
"...and my extra round?" didn't want to let them forget.
SGT: "...and the extra round, yeah. Now, we strongly reccomend that you cover your firearm while in Philadelphia, especially if you have on headphones. Now when we came up, we're honest people," Yeah, okay. "...we don't wanna hurt ya, but if someone else sees it, they may want to take advantage of it." Typical anti-OC propaganda. "You can agree with that or not agree with that."
"Your advice is duly noted."

After they wrote a few more things down, they handed me back my DL, LTCF, open and locked gun, magazine (I still don't know why they only took one magazine of the two spares), and extra round.

"Now was I in violation of any laws, Sergeant?"
SGT: "No!"

Big difference from what he said originally, huh?

I asked them if they were okay with me rechambering and reholstering, and the Sergeant said yes, as long as I point it at the river and not the park. Like I'm going to fuck that up.

They rode off.

I transcribed this post directly from the audio of my voice recorder, which can be downloaded and listened to here: http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm...1048603982.wma

This was my first experience with the Philadelphia Police Department regarding my firearm.

ETA: Now that I have some more information about the proper process of filing complaints, I'm hoping to get a Private Criminal Complaint filed this week.

[Rosco the Iroc]

Sic 'em!!!

[Connal]

Sic 'em!!!

This/\ /\ /\

Wow, I would sue the living crap out of them if I were you. I think you did a great job. Using your voice recorder makes sure there will be no slip ups. I do like how they detained you, for not breaking any laws, and not having any RAS.

"It doesn't matter what you consent to." Really? Wow, I must not have read the part where you drove to china to do this.

[ViperGTS19801]

I was originally going to press charges, but it's be a waste of money and time - after all was said and done, it cost me about fifteen minutes, and after they left with their heads sunken low, I still had all of my property, and more importantly, my freedom.

[Evan]

Sounds like a complaint is in order with the PPD and anyone else that you can contact about this case. It's obvious to me that your civil rights were violated by being detained when no crime was witnessed. Good job keeping your cool and recording the entire conversation.

[twoeggsup]

I was originally going to press charges, but it's be a waste of money and time - after all was said and done, it cost me about fifteen minutes, and after they left with their heads sunken low, I still had all of my property, and more importantly, my freedom.

If Philly follows their normal protocols since you were legally carrying a gun in the city and had contact with the PPD they will soon send notice to Montgomery Cty to revoke you LTCF.

After all, having a firearm in Philly while not committing a crime is justification for revocation isn't it?

[YllwFvr]

Psh, anyplace other than Philly I would say write to the local paper with the story of harassment and file a complaint. But its philly. The paper wont give a shit, and the police brass sure as hell wont give a shit. Philly is a piece of shit. That place really pisses me off.
Before people start picking it apart I want to say I think you dun good! I also want to know what you look like since you seem to get screwed with an awful lot.

[ViperGTS19801]

I'm not particularly shady looking - although I did have on shades and a light blue ballcap to keep the sweat out of my eyes.

[photoshooter]

Rep button broke, gotta spread it around.
You got balls, nice job. I'd hate to be the guy they stop for whatever reason right after you. He's not going to have a good day

[YllwFvr]

Im going to say you look like a terrorist



you look about as dangerous as a wet kitten