Pa Code Enforceable?

[tl_3237]

In a recent discussion about carrying in casinos a section of PA Code (§ 465a.13) was cited as prohibiting same. As I researched this citation in particular and then the Pa. Code in generally it struck me that rarely could I find a penalty clause for violating a Code. It is my understanding that properly established Code is looked upon by courts as "Administrative Law" and has the same weight as a statute.

Anyone out there with some legal knowledge that could enlighten me as to how Code is enforced absent any specific penalty clause. Certainly those Codes that require specific performance by an agency or licensed professional could be compelled by court writ or removal of license but for the average citizen this avenue of compulsion does not apply.

If there is no sanction for violation, why would anyone pay attention to the Code except out of a personal moral conscience?

By way of example, what would be the penalty for violating the casino carry code?

[normanvin]

Good question.

[knight0334]

In a recent discussion about carrying in casinos a section of PA Code (§ 465a.13) was cited as prohibiting same. As I researched this citation in particular and then the Pa. Code in generally it struck me that rarely could I find a penalty clause for violating a Code. It is my understanding that properly established Code is looked upon by courts as "Administrative Law" and has the same weight as a statute.

Anyone out there with some legal knowledge that could enlighten me as to how Code is enforced absent any specific penalty clause. Certainly those Codes that require specific performance by an agency or licensed professional could be compelled by court writ or removal of license but for the average citizen this avenue of compulsion does not apply.

If there is no sanction for violation, why would anyone pay attention to the Code except out of a personal moral conscience?

By way of example, what would be the penalty for violating the casino carry code?

Some regulatory codes can cite to a penalty like the State Park thing did. If they do it usually just a summary fine.

The code itself could serve as a notice for trespass*, possibly even as the oral/verbal first notice allowing for the quick escalation of charges from summary to misdemeanor. *(Gunlawyer touched base with this sorta in another thread)

There is no penalty for the Casino prohibition. If they catch you more than likely you will be asked to leave, if you fail to leave or remove your gun from the premises - expect a misdemeanor to felony arrest.

Its your choice.. Either abide by the regulation and have no legal worries. Or carry and risk being thrown out, banned from the premises, cited for trespassing, spend night in jail, court - depending on what kind of mood they are in and how much problems you give them.

[headcase]

Some regulatory codes can cite to a penalty like the State Park thing did. If they do it usually just a summary fine.

The code itself could serve as a notice for trespass*, possibly even as the oral/verbal first notice allowing for the quick escalation of charges from summary to misdemeanor. *(Gunlawyer touched base with this sorta in another thread)

There is no penalty for the Casino prohibition. If they catch you more than likely you will be asked to leave, if you fail to leave or remove your gun from the premises - expect a misdemeanor to felony arrest.

Its your choice.. Either abide by the regulation and have no legal worries. Or carry and risk being thrown out, banned from the premises, cited for trespassing, spend night in jail, court - depending on what kind of mood they are in and how much problems you give them.

Can't add a thing to that, well done sir.

[tl_3237]

The code itself could serve as a notice for trespass*, possibly even as the oral/verbal first notice allowing for the quick escalation of charges from summary to misdemeanor. *(Gunlawyer touched base with this sorta in another thread)

Actually they can't use the Code as trespass notice unless they post it

18 Pa.C.S.A. § 3503
(b) Defiant trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(i) actual communication to the actor;

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

Granted if an authorized agent says leave and I refuse then that would be trespass ( (i) above).

GunLawyer's comment was regarding entry when a sign posting the rules of entry prohibiting firearms/weapons was posted at the entrance ( see (ii) above). Absent such a sign your entry in violation of Code would not, IMO, be considered prima facie trespass.

From a practical standpoint I'm not suggesting that anyone deliberately violate a Code and I agree with your conclusion as to possible consequences up to but short of court ordered sanctions. Without an enforcement clause citation the courts are powerless to penalize a transgressor.

Putting my arm chair lawyer hat on I still don't see the ramifications from a purely legal perspective.

You are correct that some codes (eg DCNR) do cite a penalty clause but they are in the super-minority based on my random selection of codes. Most say NOTHING regarding sanction. I only used the casino example since it is firearm related but my question extends to the Pa. Code in general.

[Pa. Patriot]

I also do not see how a regulatory code is applicable to those not not target of the regulation.

In this case, the code is regulatory upon the running of a casino.

How can I, as a patron, be charged for violating a code that regulates casinos?

I am neither a casino nor associated with it's operation

Another example: If the restaurant codes state that tables shall be wiped/cleaned ONLY with a 10% bleach solution, shall I be in violation of said code if I, as a patron of the restaurant, wipe my own table with a dry napkin?

[knight0334]

Actually they can't use the Code as trespass notice unless they post it



Granted if an authorized agent says leave and I refuse then that would be trespass ( (i) above).

GunLawyer's comment was regarding entry when a sign posting the rules of entry prohibiting firearms/weapons was posted at the entrance ( see (ii) above). Absent such a sign your entry in violation of Code would not, IMO, be considered prima facie trespass.

From a practical standpoint I'm not suggesting that anyone deliberately violate a Code and I agree with your conclusion as to possible consequences up to but short of court ordered sanctions. Without an enforcement clause citation the courts are powerless to penalize a transgressor.

Putting my arm chair lawyer hat on I still don't see the ramifications from a purely legal perspective.

You are correct that some codes (eg DCNR) do cite a penalty clause but they are in the super-minority based on my random selection of codes. Most say NOTHING regarding sanction. I only used the casino example since it is firearm related but my question extends to the Pa. Code in general.

I've yet to visit any of the casinos in PA, does any of them have "no-gun" postings of any sort at the entrances?

[normanvin]

I've yet to visit any of the casinos in PA, does any of them have "no-gun" postings of any sort at the entrances?

I have gone twice to the local casino. I have not seen any signs.

[tl_3237]

I've yet to visit any of the casinos in PA, does any of them have "no-gun" postings of any sort at the entrances?

I can't speak to Pa even though my wife drags me there occasionally but I do know that the AC casinos do post it around and IN the casinos (probably bought the signs with what was my $$$ ). I don't gamble so I have lots of time to walk around. Next time I'm in Chester I'll make it a point to look for the signage.

Any Pa gamblers out there have first hand input?

[knight0334]

I also do not see how a regulatory code is applicable to those not not target of the regulation.

In this case, the code is regulatory upon the running of a casino.

How can I, as a patron, be charged for violating a code that regulates casinos?

I am neither a casino nor associated with it's operation

Another example: If the restaurant codes state that tables shall be wiped/cleaned ONLY with a 10% bleach solution, shall I be in violation of said code if I, as a patron of the restaurant, wipe my own table with a dry napkin?

§ 465a.13 isn't just a professional code or only just regulates the casino, but also those who may carry in it.

(a) pretty much forbids everyone,

then (b) makes a couple exemptions.

(c) then provides a means of getting permission if you dont qualify for the exemption under (b),

(d) makes a requirement of a "No weapons" posting at the entrances.


There is no penalty. However the regulations do require the casino to post a no-weapons thing. If one is in place, refer to Gunlawyer001's warning.