School Property or not

[FFEMT128]

Rather than have a legitimate question get lost in the banter of the other thread I decided to post a new topic. Mods can delete if they feel necessary.

I realize that you cannot carry on school property but that self defense may or may not be a legal reason due to there being no official test cases. My question has to do with a common side walk in front of a school. Our local elementary school has sidewalks on 2 sides of it (front and left side looking at it). To the rear of the school is an alley that abuts the school. Across the street from the school in front there are no sidewalks so crossing the street is not an option if you wish to walk safely.

Is the side walk, a common right of way, considered to be school property in that the school is responsible for the maintenance of said sidewalk?

[mrjam2jab]

Rather than have a legitimate question get lost in the banter of the other thread I decided to post a new topic. Mods can delete if they feel necessary.

I realize that you cannot carry on school property but that self defense may or may not be a legal reason due to there being no official test cases. My question has to do with a common side walk in front of a school. Our local elementary school has sidewalks on 2 sides of it (front and left side looking at it). To the rear of the school is an alley that abuts the school. Across the street from the school in front there are no sidewalks so crossing the street is not an option if you wish to walk safely.

Is the side walk, a common right of way, considered to be school property in that the school is responsible for the maintenance of said sidewalk?

I would think that it being a common right of way it wouldnt be a problem...especially if you're just walking down the street....

[TaePo]

I am not up on the federal rules but isn't there the Gun Free School Zone Act?

Basically no weapons within a 1000' of a school even on public property unless you have a LTCF or CCW from the state in which you reside. (Does not include private property that is your residence IIRC, you can carry at home.)

Someone will chime in shortly with the specifics, I hope.

[FFEMT128]

I have a LTCF so that would not be an issue. I am under the impression of mrjam2jab about it being permitted on the sidewalk area as it is a common walk way. If I were to step up onto the steps or venture into the grassy area it would then be school property was my assumption.

Thanks.

[gnbrotz]

The only way to know for sure is to pull property records and find out.

I would assume that most are not on the property itself, but some may be.

There was a case in which this was part of the offered defense, and in that case, it held up because the prosecution offered no evidence to show that the sidewalk was school property. There was no mention of the actual factual ownership, just that the defense asserted it wasn't school property, and the prosecution offered nothing to dispute that.

*ETA - I have the case on a flash drive somewhere, but I can't find the drive right this second.

**ETA - Found it. Com. v Ingram (see attachement)

[headcase]

The only way to know for sure is to pull property records and find out.

I would assume that most are not on the property itself, but some may be.

There was a case in which this was part of the offered defense, and in that case, it held up because the prosecution offered no evidence to show that the sidewalk was school property. There was no mention of the actual factual ownership, just that the defense asserted it wasn't school property, and the prosecution offered nothing to dispute that.

*ETA - I have the case on a flash drive somewhere, but I can't find the drive right this second.

**ETA - Found it. Com. v Ingram (see attachement)

Well that is four straight days I have been unable to rep something really good from you .....

[FFEMT128]

The only way to know for sure is to pull property records and find out.

I would assume that most are not on the property itself, but some may be.

There was a case in which this was part of the offered defense, and in that case, it held up because the prosecution offered no evidence to show that the sidewalk was school property. There was no mention of the actual factual ownership, just that the defense asserted it wasn't school property, and the prosecution offered nothing to dispute that.

*ETA - I have the case on a flash drive somewhere, but I can't find the drive right this second.

**ETA - Found it. Com. v Ingram (see attachement)

Thanks for the info.

[FFEMT128]

Well that is four straight days I have been unable to rep something really good from you .....

Got him for you..

[gnbrotz]

Well that is four straight days I have been unable to rep something really good from you .....

I'm more than happy to accept cash any time the button won't work.

[officer64]

This is a quote from the National Crime Prevention Council:

"In 1990, Congress passed and the president signed the Gun-Free School Zones Act. The law directs school districts to develop policies to keep students and staff safe from guns and other dangerous weapons. Following the successful drug-free zone concept, many local districts have adopted weapon-free zones within and around the school, in many cases developing "zero tolerance" policies that direct severe sanctions (including expulsion) of students caught with guns or other dangerous weapons. Communities in states as diverse as Oklahoma, Washington, California, Missouri, and Pennsylvania have had success with this approach. The National School Safety Center and the authors of Violence In Our Schools, Hospitals, and Public Places endorse weapon-free school zones as an effective violence and crime prevention measure. A 1994 federal court of appeals decision called into question the ability of states and localities to enforce the law when it declared Louisiana's law unconstitutional. Localities should consult their state attorney general for advice on implementing a policy inspired by the federal legislation."

Basically, the Federal act only directed localities to enact their own laws and ordinances regarding this. The attempt at making a National law was struck down due to Constitutionality issues. That was tried back in 1990 and this was their response in the same year.

As far as common easements, the school boards are responsible for taking care of sidewalks, no less than you would for the one in front of your house (if you have one). This is where each local ordinance must be looked at individually. If it states a circumference by distance around the school, it likely will include the common easements. If it just states "school property", it may be possible to fight an issue coming from being armed on a sidewalk. However, what would likely happen would be amending the ordinance to stop a successful challenge a second time. Now, there are two things that localities are banking on. First, that nobody would be willing to take on the costs of challenging the laws. The other is that with the violence that has occurred at schools, these laws are popular overall with the general public. You can thank those two sickos at Columbine for this. For any pro gun groups to challenge them would not be the best PR move, right or wrong. It falls into the same category in public perception as the rare instance where a kid is playing with a firearm he shouldn't have been able to get his hands on and someone gets hurt or worse. It never becomes an individual issue of negligence, it's always the broad issue of unchecked gun ownership.

However, I wonder why one would question the subject if you are just standing there waiting for your child to come out or just passing through. If you are concealed, nobody would know you are armed. If you're OCing in front of a school, don't you think that this might just be incendiary behavior all things considered? Sometimes, common sense is just plain more important. You have to remember that laws like these are pretty much 'feel good" laws that are kneejerk reactions by large. Yes, I personally believe that guns have no place in schools in regard to students, except a sanctioned rifle or pistol team. Maybe it's being an urbanite all of my life and have seen the problems at urban public schools as well as having gone to them. If a parent has a CCW and has reason to be at a school, there shouldn't be a problem, but we know that there is due to the language in these ordinances. That's another problem with them...there is never a middle ground.