an open carry scenario

[Exbiker]

Here is what I got out of your reply:
1) OC = something to prove.
2) CC = automatic "tactical advantage" in every situation
3) OC = no respect for others.
4) your old

I have carried both ways since the late 70`s. So I have no agenda. This thread was specific to churches. As far as number one I`m hoping that the vast majority have nothing to prove BUT like it or not there IS a % of people on here that are fairly new to firearms and ARE out to prove something or get that extra shot of testosterone. Number 2, I think that in many cases it is a tactical advantage to CC but there is a physiological advantage to OC. One advantage to OC is how you present yourself and the deterrence factor that has. Number 3 then I`m guilty of no respect because I OC but this was about church not in general. Number 4 I concur after over 30 years of riding the highways I`ve been beaten into an old tired person.

[headcase]

If you can't respect other people enough to CC in a church you have issues. You know atleast some people won't like it and will be afraid, yet you still walk into THEIR house of worship to make a statement or whatever BS reason you come up with? Come on now it is called being human, we aren't animals and respecting other people/buildings in certain situations not only won't kill you, it is the right thing to do. Get off the OC highhorse, since when is it a lifestyle you can't avoid for 2hrs and pretend to be a decent human being? Also how about showing a little respect for god/what others believe in by wearing a suit? Sport coats hide guns quite well.

XDitsnotexerscisingmyrightstillanoldladycries45

The church is MY house of worship too, I am not a visitor. Your standard of being human is great for you, that's what's great about the basic tenets of this country, it doesn't have to be great for anyone other than you. How about you get off your better than everyone else high-horse and stop forcing your standard of living on us? That won't kill you, will it? I mean we are all human, no need to lash out at everyone who doesn't share your peculiar moral base, right?

HeadI'llexercisemyrightwhetherxd45criesornotcase

[Exbiker]

I'd sooner soul kiss my wife in the communion line than open carry in a church.

Me too. I`d rather french kiss your wife in the communion line than OC in church.

Hey what`s a soul kiss? I`m a white guy.

[XD45]

The church is MY house of worship too, I am not a visitor. Your standard of being human is great for you, that's what's great about the basic tenets of this country, it doesn't have to be great for anyone other than you. How about you get off your better than everyone else high-horse and stop forcing your standard of living on us? That won't kill you, will it? I mean we are all human, no need to lash out at everyone who doesn't share your peculiar moral base, right?

HeadI'llexercisemyrightwhetherxd45criesornotcase

That is a great example of what i'm talking about, thank you!!

[jcabin]

If you can't respect other people enough to CC in a church you have issues. You know atleast some people won't like it and will be afraid, yet you still walk into THEIR house of worship to make a statement or whatever BS reason you come up with? Come on now it is called being human, we aren't animals and respecting other people/buildings in certain situations not only won't kill you, it is the right thing to do. Get off the OC highhorse, since when is it a lifestyle you can't avoid for 2hrs and pretend to be a decent human being? Also how about showing a little respect for god/what others believe in by wearing a suit? Sport coats hide guns quite well.

XDitsnotexerscisingmyrightstillanoldladycries45

It seems as though you support a theocracy. You know, the church rules the state, that kinda thing. Cause here in the USA theres a seperation of church and state, and our rights supersede religious affiliation/culture. Just because im Catholic does not mean im going to start scoffing and looking down upon those who eat meat during lent, or have sex before marriage. It's their right to do whatever they want, regardless if theyre breaking their own religions rules or a non believer. Perhaps the US is not the country you should be living in with that type of one sided mind set. I heard the middle east is quite nice this time of year..

[Pa. Patriot]

That is a great example of what i'm talking about, thank you!!

Except that OC'ers did not "lash out" against CC'ers for preferring CC in church.
They also did not suggest that CC'ing in church was "wrong" as was communicated in the opposite direction.

[Pa. Patriot]

I have carried both ways since the late 70`s. So I have no agenda. This thread was specific to churches. As far as number one I`m hoping that the vast majority have nothing to prove BUT like it or not there IS a % of people on here that are fairly new to firearms and ARE out to prove something or get that extra shot of testosterone. Number 2, I think that in many cases it is a tactical advantage to CC but there is a physiological advantage to OC. One advantage to OC is how you present yourself and the deterrence factor that has. Number 3 then I`m guilty of no respect because I OC but this was about church not in general. Number 4 I concur after over 30 years of riding the highways I`ve been beaten into an old tired person.

Thanks for the clarifications. I think we're more or less on the same page. I can relate with your comments above. Your inital post seemed stereotypical anti-OC, perhaps by virtue of being a little vague on a couple comments.

[Rule10b5]

I don't believe OC'ers are the attention whores, it's the one's hemming and hawing about OC that are the attention whores.

True, all the would you, could you, here, there, everywhere posting is getting pretty damned tiring.

But I think there is a certain amount of fight-the-establishment/look-at-me/I'm-a-victim-they're-violating-my-rights that goes on when someone insists on engaging in a behavior with an avoidance cost to the actor that is far lower than the irritation/annoyance it causes the vast majority of the population. I don't view open carry in a given situation as a pro v. anti issue, I view it as a simple dress code issue that is correctable by simply wearing a jacket or vest. I personally have a problem with people showing up at church in jeans. Or with a ton of visible tattoos or piercings. I don't see OC as being any different. Not all behaviors are appropriate in every situation, and something that is perfectly acceptable in the appropriate context is morbidly offensive in an inappropriate context. I wear a suit, cover my gun and my tattoos, and I don't wear earrings in church. And I do it out of respect for my fellow church-goers and because they might not like to see anything less in church. It's not a question of rights, or right or wrong, it's a question of me being the type of guy who prefers to show respect for fellow churchgoers by being as neutral and conforming as possible, and avoiding doing anything that has even a tiny, remote possibility of offending. It isn't about me when I go to church, it's about everyone else.

And I think the group that frames it as anything more than simply dressing appropriately shows a fundamental disconnect between the perception of the goal advanced by OC, and the perception of OC by even otherwise staid gunnies. Quite frankly, you have a very noisy yet minuscule subset (OC'ers), of a tiny subset (CC'ers), of a subset of the general population (gun owners) that gets together to post/bitch/hangout, whatever, and the behavior is normalized among them. And they're shocked and offended to discover that people with different interests differ in terms of their viewpoints. Same thing with the furries, or the drag queens, or whatever. Perfectly fine if you want to go to the store or walk around town dressed like a giant fox, but if you show up at a mainstream church or nice restaurant I'd expect (and applaud) if you were asked to leave. Part of church is the experience and gravitas. Bullshit, nonsense, or unrelated agenda-advancing that are absolutely unnecessary detract from the experience in the same way as a guy in a fox suit would annoy me if he sat down at the next table at Le Bec Fin.

[headcase]

True, all the would you, could you, here, there, everywhere posting is getting pretty damned tiring.

But I think there is a certain amount of fight-the-establishment/look-at-me/I'm-a-victim-they're-violating-my-rights that goes on when someone insists on engaging in a behavior with an avoidance cost to the actor that is far lower than the irritation/annoyance it causes the vast majority of the population. I don't view open carry in a given situation as a pro v. anti issue, I view it as a simple dress code issue that is correctable by simply wearing a jacket or vest. I personally have a problem with people showing up at church in jeans. Or with a ton of visible tattoos or piercings. I don't see OC as being any different. Not all behaviors are appropriate in every situation, and something that is perfectly acceptable in the appropriate context is morbidly offensive in an inappropriate context. I wear a suit, cover my gun and my tattoos, and I don't wear earrings in church. And I do it out of respect for my fellow church-goers and because they might not like to see anything less in church. It's not a question of rights, or right or wrong, it's a question of me being the type of guy who prefers to show respect for fellow churchgoers by being as neutral and conforming as possible, and avoiding doing anything that has even a tiny, remote possibility of offending. It isn't about me when I go to church, it's about everyone else.

And I think the group that frames it as anything more than simply dressing appropriately shows a fundamental disconnect between the perception of the goal advanced by OC, and the perception of OC by even otherwise staid gunnies. Quite frankly, you have a very noisy yet minuscule subset (OC'ers), of a tiny subset (CC'ers), of a subset of the general population (gun owners) that gets together to post/bitch/hangout, whatever, and the behavior is normalized among them. And they're shocked and offended to discover that people with different interests differ in terms of their viewpoints. Same thing with the furries, or the drag queens, or whatever. Perfectly fine if you want to go to the store or walk around town dressed like a giant fox, but if you show up at a mainstream church or nice restaurant I'd expect (and applaud) if you were asked to leave. Part of church is the experience and gravitas. Bullshit, nonsense, or unrelated agenda-advancing that are absolutely unnecessary detract from the experience in the same way as a guy in a fox suit would annoy me if he sat down at the next table at Le Bec Fin.

Sorry if I am not as eloquent in my response, as I have been slumming in my last few posts......

Your quoted post is a good one, from a personal perspective point of view. It also touches on private property rights. I do, and have, always agreed that some people might find OC offensive in certain settings. Those settings might include everywhere you could physically be, depending on the person being offended. In no way, shape, or form, do I advocate staying somewhere you have been asked to leave. I also don't advocate standing on the "OC is my right" high ground, against all comers, in all situations. If you want to enjoy a nice dinner, in a fancy restaurant, and that place doesn't want you to carry openly, or gets complaints from other patrons, I would probably cover up and enjoy my meal. There are many scenarios I could imagine that I would cover my firearm in. It is being told that it is unacceptable that burns my ass. If someone has a problem with a legal activity, and wants to politely ask that the activity be refrained from, I am sure 99% of "knee jerk" reactions from OC'ers would be avoided. If someone is OC'ing in church, how, exactly is that effecting you or anyone else? Unless it is triggering some uncontrollable mental response, you are responsible for how it effects you. People talk about being polite, but the polite thing would be to go on with your own activity and stop interfering in your own life. The "offends, annoys, ain't right", responses, are all self-generated and can just as easily be un-generated. If seeing an openly displayed firearm in a holster causes you enough distress that you actually can't concentrate on praying , then you have deeper issues. If someone was making farting noises, or they had a child that is screaming uncontrollably, then I would expect these responses, as those things physically interfere with your activity.

[Rule10b5]

If someone is OC'ing in church, how, exactly is that effecting you or anyone else? Unless it is triggering some uncontrollable mental response, you are responsible for how it effects you. People talk about being polite, but the polite thing would be to go on with your own activity and stop interfering in your own life. The "offends, annoys, ain't right", responses, are all self-generated and can just as easily be un-generated. If seeing an openly displayed firearm in a holster causes you enough distress that you actually can't concentrate on praying , then you have deeper issues. If someone was making farting noises, or they had a child that is screaming uncontrollably, then I would expect these responses, as those things physically interfere with your activity.

Well-reasoned, as usual.

My point is that some conduct, while perfectly acceptable in many situations is unacceptable as a matter of courtesy due to the weight of public opinion and common custom in others. Open carry is, indisputably, not common practice in church, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I'm willing to give it the nod in most situations, with a quiet smile and an understanding that whatever gets some folks through the night differs from my own way of thinking.

The inherent fallacy underlying the insistence of people to push the limits of what they can do and where they can do it is that those limits should be pushed the first place. Or that leaving well enough alone isn't good enough.

And simply because something does not overtly interfere with worship doesn't make it appropriate. It may form the basis for allowing a particular behavior, but it doesn't form the predicate for the argument that it necessarily should be allowed.

For example:

Would it be appropriate for someone to come to church in a a full gimp style vinyl suit, complete with ball-gag, dog collar, and leash?

Would it be appropriate for someone to dress up in full drag-queen regalia?

Either of those may be analogized to OC.
"I'm just trying to bring awareness to the lifestyle."
"I'm not doing anything illegal."
"If you don't like it, don't look."
"I'm not making noise, or disturbing anyone."
"Why won't you accept me as I am? I'm perfectly normal, and within my rights."

Yeah, you are. But you're also making a spectacle, right or wrong, by deviating from the norm and engaging in unusual behaviors in a traditional forum. If the goal is normalizing a behavior, you're admitting up front that it isn't normal to begin with, and church isn't the place to break ground like that. The message may be valid, but you're targeting the recipient in the wrong forum.