PA police acting outside of the law again?

[IronSight]

Okay, so it's been said on here several times that Lackawanna County is working on a system that relays to a cop information on whether or not someone is an LTCF holder during a regular traffic stop.

I believe this system is illegal as there is no authorization for it under 6109 or any other law that I can find. We already know that the PSP doesn't give a damn about the actual law at hand, but I felt like starting a thread on here to discuss this system, it's legality/illegality, and so that some of us can use the information and discussion here to approach our representatives about this issue.

This post is made because of references by other forum users to such a system being developed, if anyone has any specifics as to what type of system is currently be developed please post them here, as it will be important to get official evidence as to what is actually going on. I don't like posting about rumors, but after seeing several posts talking about this system I felt this thread would be appropriate.

I believe this sub-forum is an appropriate place for this discussion, as it is a great concern to anyone with an LTCF who happens to carry in the car. I'll quote myself here to avoid having to retype why LTCF information matters during a traffic stop.

While the courts have not yet determined whether or not knowledge that the driver has a license to carry can equal "reasonable" suspicion that the driver is armed I'm of the belief that if they ever have to decide the issue, they'll probably rule in favor of the cops, and not in favor of license holders. These two court cases, therefore, could easily be used to argue that if a cop knows the driver has an LTCF, they could cuff the driver while searching the passenger compartments of the vehicle and be perfectly "legal" while doing so.

PA v. Mimms

This case created case law that equates an armed subject as the same as an "armed and dangerous" subject. Thanks to this, now if you are detained and you are armed, even lawfully armed, you are considered "armed and dangerous" by the courts. This case also overturned a PA Supreme Court decision that had stated that an officer could not order you out of the vehicle without independent reasoning for doing so. So now cops can order you out of your vehicle whenever they please (in the course of a lawful stop, that is).

http://supreme.justia.com/us/434/106/case.html


Michigan v. Long

This case further butchered the 4th amendment, by allowing the search of the passenger compartment of a vehicle, if they have a reasonable suspicion that you are armed. So now, if you inform them you are armed, you automatically grant the officer a free search of the passenger compartment of your car, if he so wishes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...3_1032_ZO.html


Working together, the two cases allow an officer to, once he knows or reasonably believes you are armed (since you are now both armed AND dangerous in the eyes of the court), order you out of the vehicle and pat you down and then search the passenger compartment of your car while you sit in the back of his car, or on the side of the road, in handcuffs, for officer safety of course. All of this is allowed because in the eyes of the court you and I, the law abiding citizens, are considered armed and dangerous.

I recommend reading the dissenting opinions in these cases, they are quite well written and provide further insight into how, exactly, the SCOTUS has butchered the 4th amendment during a traffic stop.

If you want to tell a cop you're armed, even in PA, just be prepared of what you could be forced to sit through, and then remember that you will have consented to all of it thanks to your "courtesy" towards the officer.

What this all means, is that if this system that's being tested goes statewide, there is extreme potential for it to be abused, especially in areas such as Philly where the local cops aren't exactly friendly towards gun carriers. I also believe this system has the potential to create additional problems, as cops may begin responding to traffic stops of license holders more aggressively. I'm sure none of us would like to have a cop respond to a stop for speeding with his/her gun drawn and pointing at us just because his/her little screen shows we've got an LTCF. Given that hundreds of thousands of PA residents carry, the potential for abuse is quite large.

Now, it's been said at least once on this board that this system was being developed under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (l) which I'll quote here to show that such a system is clearly NOT authorized under this section of law.

(l) Firearms License Validation System.--
(1) The Pennsylvania State Police shall establish a nationwide toll- free telephone number, known as the Firearms License Validation System, which shall be operational seven days a week, 24 hours per day, for the purpose of responding to law enforcement inquiries regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm.
(2) Notwithstanding any other law regarding the confidentiality of information, inquiries to the Firearms License Validation System regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm may only be made by law enforcement personnel acting within the scope of their official duties.
(3) Law enforcement personnel outside this Commonwealth shall provide their originating agency identifier number and the license number of the license to carry a firearm which is the subject of the inquiry.
(4) Responses to inquiries by law enforcement personnel outside this Commonwealth shall be limited to the name of the licensee, the validity of the license and any information which may be provided to a criminal justice agency pursuant to Chapter 91 (relating to criminal history record information).

All 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (l) authorizes is the creation of a telephone system to verify a LTCF. Such a system is prescribed, by the law above, to be a system where the cops check on a license's validity AFTER they have lawfully requested the LTCF holder produce the license under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6122. The system that is supposedly being tested in Lackawanna County right now is not authorized by any of the above statutes, nor any other statute that I can find.

Such a system raises serious 4th amendment concerns/issues, and appears to be being establish absent any lawful authority. Clearly this should be a matter of concern for everyone here. If anyone has any inside knowledge about this system, or good information as to exactly what's being tested/implemented, please post it here.

[headcase]

"You must spread some reputation around, before giving it to Ironsight, again."

You know, for a 21 year old.....


I am not comfortable actively, physically, doing face to face activism with the government, for a variety of personal reasons. I would much rather provide behind the scenes support and assistance, and I truly try to go out of my way to do so. That being said, I am really getting to the point where I feel like I am going to have to physically go have face time with a few Reps, and Senators, and let the chips fall where they may.

[Curmudgeon]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to IronSight again."

*sigh*

.....

[andrewjs18]

*sigh*

.....

makes 3 of us..someone give this man the rep he deserves.

[BimmerJon]

Got Him

Rep'ed

[t1m0thy]

Got him for ya.

This is just getting ridiculous.


WHAT FUCKING PART OF SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED DO THESE TOTALITARIAN ASSHOLES NOT UNDERSTAND....GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[IronSight]

"You must spread some reputation around, before giving it to Ironsight, again."

You know, for a 21 year old.....


I am not comfortable actively, physically, doing face to face activism with the government, for a variety of personal reasons. I would much rather provide behind the scenes support and assistance, and I truly try to go out of my way to do so. That being said, I am really getting to the point where I feel like I am going to have to physically go have face time with a few Reps, and Senators, and let the chips fall where they may.

I can understand that, and I was reluctant to approach my state representative about other issues before. It's not something that everyone can do, or wants to do, but I like it.

Got him for ya.

This is just getting ridiculous.


WHAT FUCKING PART OF SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED DO THESE TOTALITARIAN ASSHOLES NOT UNDERSTAND....GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Part of the problem is that in order to challenge these types of things, someone has to first be harmed by them. Someone has to get the standing for a court case, and be in a position such that they are fully capable of challenging it in court. That, or the people in power (aka the governor and heads of the PSP and local police) have to set things right.

We've reached a point where the people in power don't care, the voters don't notice, and those who do get harmed by such things aren't financially or emotionally capable of taking the authorities to task. We need to fight ignorance above all else, take a look at HB 40 for a perfect example as to why. A few thousand e-mails, and a few letters and phone calls, got sent off towards our representatives before the Judiciary committee meeting. The number should have been higher, quite frankly, but ignorance keeps the number low. People don't vote, they don't pay attention, and they don't stand up when wrongs are committed.

This is why I'm trying to gather information about this issue, so I can forward it along to the "power players" and push to set things right.

[t1m0thy]

I can understand that, and I was reluctant to approach my state representative about other issues before. It's not something that everyone can do, or wants to do, but I like it.



Part of the problem is that in order to challenge these types of things, someone has to first be harmed by them. Someone has to get the standing for a court case, and be in a position such that they are fully capable of challenging it in court. That, or the people in power (aka the governor and heads of the PSP and local police) have to set things right.

We've reached a point where the people in power don't care, the voters don't notice, and those who do get harmed by such things aren't financially or emotionally capable of taking the authorities to task. We need to fight ignorance above all else, take a look at HB 40 for a perfect example as to why. A few thousand e-mails, and a few letters and phone calls, got sent off towards our representatives before the Judiciary committee meeting. The number should have been higher, quite frankly, but ignorance keeps the number low. People don't vote, they don't pay attention, and they don't stand up when wrongs are committed.

This is why I'm trying to gather information about this issue, so I can forward it along to the "power players" and push to set things right.

Its not just about gun rights. That's why this country is so messed up right now; people are more concerned about who won the latest sporting event than the way their tax money is being spent by their local officials. Unfortunately, we deserve what we get...

[andrewjs18]

I can understand that, and I was reluctant to approach my state representative about other issues before. It's not something that everyone can do, or wants to do, but I like it.



Part of the problem is that in order to challenge these types of things, someone has to first be harmed by them. Someone has to get the standing for a court case, and be in a position such that they are fully capable of challenging it in court. That, or the people in power (aka the governor and heads of the PSP and local police) have to set things right.

We've reached a point where the people in power don't care, the voters don't notice, and those who do get harmed by such things aren't financially or emotionally capable of taking the authorities to task. We need to fight ignorance above all else, take a look at HB 40 for a perfect example as to why. A few thousand e-mails, and a few letters and phone calls, got sent off towards our representatives before the Judiciary committee meeting. The number should have been higher, quite frankly, but ignorance keeps the number low. People don't vote, they don't pay attention, and they don't stand up when wrongs are committed.

This is why I'm trying to gather information about this issue, so I can forward it along to the "power players" and push to set things right.

this could be a nice issue to bring up when the FOAC chapter out East starts up.

[headcase]

There is so much that the OP touches on, that this thread is ripe to go OT in five or six different directions. I was just pointing out that the OP, especially being so young, is really becoming a force to be reckoned with, and how it is starting to look like more of us are going to have to start moving out of their comfort zones if we are going to be able to effectively combat shit like this new system.