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April 2nd, 2009, 05:49 PM #91
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
Keep perspective, recognize the good in your enemies and the bad in your friends.
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100
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April 2nd, 2009, 05:59 PM #92
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
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danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:11 PM #93Super Member
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Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
Yes there is a difference between using a 100% receiver and oooo say a 90% receiver or an AK receiver flat. The biggest difference in the 2 is the fact the serialized receiver can be tracked and the flat can't be if you get my point.
In other words, if you build 10 AK's using receiver flats, it is almost impossable to "prove" how many you built. But a serialized 100% receiver can be tracked back to the person that completed the firearm. That is the BIGGEST reason why ATF changed the 4473. WAY too many people (dealers included)building AR's for resale and not paying the FET.
If you build ONE AR and 2 years later decide to sell it. It is VERY unlikely that anyone anywhere will ever even notice. Now build 5 in one year and sell everyone for ANY reason and at a minimum the Treasury dept. WANTS thier 11%.
On a side note: if ever questioned, you can't say they were all POS and you sold them for $50. each because TTB is set up to and they have NO PROBLEM telling you what the retail value should have been and how mucg FET you WILL pay.
Keep in mind I am only throwing this out because times are changing and fast. I would expect just about any law (no matter how obscure) to be used against gun owners in the near future.
Rich W.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:19 PM #94
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
No, because a rifle does not require a SP4-113 per 18Pa.C.S.6111
Does not matter if an FFL was incorrectly directed to do so when sold to them, there would be no duty to go to an FFL because the firearm is a rifle.
Only Manufacturers are required to pay FAET. Individuals, manufacturing firearms for personal use are not among those taxed. A non manufacturer FFL (01FFL) is required to pay FAET (and obtain a 07) in order to manufacture more than 50 guns per year.
Internet legend. No such restriction exists on the number of firearms a person (non-licensee) can manufacture for personal use per year in Fed or Pa. law.
Again, this is NOT correct. Not since 2005.
FFL's are allowed 50 per year before they are required to get an 07 and pay Federal FAET. Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax.
Ref: http://www.ttb.gov/pdf/50gun_exemption.pdf_________________________________________
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:22 PM #95
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
_________________________________________
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:30 PM #96
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
Greater than 80% (as determined by the ATF) are considered "firearms" and subject to all applicable controls.
If an individual builds a title-1 firearm, there is no difference in using a title-1 receiver or a flat in terms of legality for te individual. No FAET is due and no limit on how many they can make as long as they are not building them with the intention of selling them.
What change to the 4473?
And as above, non manufacturer FFL's are allowed to manufacture 50 guns per year without paying FAET.
This is simply not true. Individuals are not required to pay FAET regardless if they later sell the firearm or not.
Only time they would run afoul of the tax code is if they were determined to be "in the business" (see ref below) and slapped with manufacturing without a license.
REF:H6) May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms? [Back]
Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms. (see attached).Section 921(a)21)(C)
The term "engaged in the business" means - C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(ll)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
http://www.ttb.gov/pdf/50gun_exemption.pdf
This information sheet announces the recently enacted amendment to section 4182 of
the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (IRC), 26 U.S.C. 4182, to provide an exemption
from the firearms and ammunition excise tax (FAET) for any pistol, revolver, or firearm
(article) if it was manufactured, produced, or imported by a person who manufacturers,
produces, or imports less than an aggregate of 50 of such articles during a calendar
year.
--snip--Last edited by Pa. Patriot; April 2nd, 2009 at 06:47 PM.
_________________________________________
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:55 PM #97Super Member
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Tannersville,
Pennsylvania
(Monroe County) - Age
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Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
Last edited by Warners Surplus; April 2nd, 2009 at 06:57 PM.
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April 2nd, 2009, 06:59 PM #98
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
Ok, folks. back to the original topic:
Discussing the issue with Lieutenant L. is a waste of time. The folks at PICS have decided that a AR-15 receiver is a handgun even though they have not that authority. Not surprisingly, they don't understand that and/or are unwilling to concede.
Now, they HAVE told me they are waiting on the "legal dept" to make a decision.
I have spoken to an attorney today and am awaiting more info and his research into the issue, I may contact another attorney tonight as well.
I figure we can wait to see what the PICS legal dept says. THen (or before) we may want to have a court ordered decision on this and/or order to force PICS t stop telling dealers to violate 6111. Meanwhile, I will be executing transfers per 18.Pa.C.S.6111.
I will post more info on the possibility of a court action when I get it._________________________________________
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 07:05 PM #99
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
lol - I know, I believe that is the case.
I don't want people misunderstanding that the FAET issues are not applicable to an individual unless the prove the individuals intent to sell. Your posts made no such reference and made it sound as any individual manufacture was looking for trouble, the way I was reading it.. Also, the FFL's selling manufactured AR's at guns shows. Legal as long as it is 50 or less_________________________________________
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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April 2nd, 2009, 07:06 PM #100
Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?
This just isn't accurate. I could make twenty guns tomorrow as long as I don't engage in the business of selling firearms. I can them sell those twenty guns in fire years as long as I'm not engaged in the business of making or selling firearms. I also don't need to pay the FET as you stated on any of those guns.
Now then if I was making 10 guns a year and selling all those guns every year the BATFE might want to question if I'm in the business of manufacturing firearms and could most likely right charge me.
[edit] Oops looks like Pa. Patriot already addressed this. Teaches me not to refresh before posting.[/edit]Last edited by MikeB0; April 2nd, 2009 at 07:13 PM.
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