Can a home be stolen?

[Iron_Scorpion]

Let me clear up first, these are hypothetical questions, I have no intention or am I trying to find loopholes. I am also not condoning anyone else to use deadly force in a circumstance where you are not immediately threatened without alternatives. I am just curious about the limitation of the law, and more so about, what is the exact definition of theft.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html

This post states:
“
PA lacks with true "Castle Doctrine" is the assumption that the person unlawfully entering your home is doing so to do harm.
However, there is a provision under the Protection of Property section of law to stop unlawful entries if a felony is committed within a dwelling.
“

So you have no legal right to use deadly force just because someone broke into your home.
But, robbery is a felony. So, an intruder entering your home; can you claim occupancy is robbery? By being in the house uninvited, they technically stole it? Is it possible to steal a house? Is it only stealing if you are not present in the home; it has to be removed from you? If you are in the home at the same time are they now kidnapping?

I figure this would follow suit with, when is it actually grand theft auto? By a robber sitting in your car, is this robbery? Or do they have to drive away first? If you are car jacked while still in the car, Is the car stolen at this point or do you have to be forced out first? Are you technically kidnapped while still in the car?

If they have to drive away for it to be considered grand theft, can a homeless person live in my car nightly as long as they don’t remove anything from the car or drive away? They can step inside my garage while the door is going down, and sleep their all night?

This whole thing is such a gray area for me, I’m very confused. I bring this question up because I heard of people going on a month long vacations and while they were gone, homeless people moved into their house. Did the homeless technically steal the house??

[Avi90]

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. lol.

Someone breaking into your home when you're not there isn't robbery, it's burglary. Robbery is stealing directly from a person. Burglary is stealing from a place.

Also a homeless person sleeping in your garage wouldn't be considered robbery or burglary. It would simply be considered criminal trespass/something similar. In order for it to be Burglary the person entering must have "the intention to commit a crime there within."

Unless the homeless guy had intentions of stealing something from your garage, it isn't burglary.

[NikeBauer21]

I don't really have the time to go into depth right now, but I'm sure one of the legal experts can further define when they arrive.

But it's all about interpretation of intent. The homeless guy just sleeping in your garage IS NOT a threat, or stealing anything, unless he is in fact doing so. He would be charged with tresspass, unless he threatened you with a weapon, or stole something out of it. If he was drunk, sleeping in there, and you told him to get out or your calling the cops, and he wouldn't get out, it's tresspass. If you said it, and he pulled a knife on you, well now it's a life threatening situation.

Just remember, the way you view intent, and the way the courts view your intent, can vary greatly sometimes. That's why it is always important to judge threat level and act accordingly.

And Avi is right, burglary is stealing from a place, robbery is stealing from a person.

[tdyoung58]

That's why people take the wheels off when it's delivered.... well unless they're from Arkansas

[Mootness]

Also a homeless person sleeping in your garage wouldn't be considered robbery or burglary. It would simply be considered criminal trespass/something similar. In order for it to be Burglary the person entering must have "the intention to commit a crime there within."

Unless the homeless guy had intentions of stealing something from your garage, it isn't burglary.

I don't know how PSPolice charges things, but from what you said it sounds like the homeless guy entered with an intent to criminal trespass -> burglary. Though there are other questions now like is the garage attached and or nearby the occupied house?

NikeBauer look-up 'adverse possession.' I believe PA utilizes adverse possession for 'stealing homes.'

[knight0334]

Let me clear up first, these are hypothetical questions, I have no intention or am I trying to find loopholes. I am also not condoning anyone else to use deadly force in a circumstance where you are not immediately threatened without alternatives. I am just curious about the limitation of the law, and more so about, what is the exact definition of theft.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html

This post states:
“
PA lacks with true "Castle Doctrine" is the assumption that the person unlawfully entering your home is doing so to do harm.
However, there is a provision under the Protection of Property section of law to stop unlawful entries if a felony is committed within a dwelling.
“

So you have no legal right to use deadly force just because someone broke into your home.
But, robbery is a felony. So, an intruder entering your home; can you claim occupancy is robbery? No, they cannot make off with your house. By being in the house uninvited, they technically stole it? No, the house isn't going anywhere. They are just in it unlawfully, which is a form of trespassing. If they commit ANY other crime after they have unlawfully entered it becomes burglary(felony) Is it possible to steal a house? Yes, but not in the manner in which you are trying to justify murdering someone with. Is it only stealing if you are not present in the home; it has to be removed from you? If you are in the home at the same time are they now kidnapping?

I figure this would follow suit with, when is it actually grand theft auto? By a robber sitting in your car, is this robbery? Or do they have to drive away first? If you are car jacked while still in the car, Is the car stolen at this point or do you have to be forced out first? Its stolen, but it doesn't mean you can use deadly force. Are you technically kidnapped while still in the car? Possibly.

If they have to drive away for it to be considered grand theft, can a homeless person live in my car nightly as long as they don’t remove anything from the car or drive away? They can step inside my garage while the door is going down, and sleep their all night? No... Hello... Trespassing? That law covers it.

This whole thing is such a gray area for me, I’m very confused. This will unconfuse you, do not use deadly force in matters dealing with property - only for when you are in fear of death/serious bodily injury/rape/kidnapping. Yes, there are legal justifications in certain situations for using deadly force over property matters, but for 1. you WILL go to jail until you can prove things. 2. would killing someone over a mere replaceable object, or over a simple transgression be enough to satisfy your dire need to murder someone? I bring this question up because I heard of people going on a month long vacations and while they were gone, homeless people moved into their house. Did the homeless technically steal the house?? No, they just unlawfully entered. And there is a lawful means to for squatters to take ownership of abandoned property - but that takes years of squatting.

See responses in red above.


Also, you need to look up the definitions and legal text to the terms: robbery, burglary, trespassing, kidnapping. They are under PA's Title 18 Crimes Codes.

[NikeBauer21]

NikeBauer look-up 'adverse possession.' I believe PA utilizes adverse possession for 'stealing homes.'

http://www.lgc.state.pa.us/deskbook0...Possession.pdf

I'm not a legal expert, but I think the only charge for something as such (homeless guy camping in your garage), I still think only trespass applies.

Again, I don't have a full understanding of it all, but I don't think the bum can take your home, nor can you use deadly force because he is "trying to steal your house"...

Correct me if I'm wrong though, or not even close... I'm always willing to learn.

[LittleRedToyota]

it doesn't matter whether he is trying to steal your home or not.

if he is in your home and will not leave and you reasonably believe that nothing less than deadly force will get him to leave, you can, at least by the letter of the use-of-force statutes, use deadly force to terminate his unlawful entry.

from the use-of-force statutes as posted at http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm

Title 18, §507. Use of Force for the Protection of Property.

...

(4)(i) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if:

(A) there has been an entry into the actor’s dwelling;

(B) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that the entry is lawful; and

(C) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that force less than deadly force would be adequate to terminate the entry.

disclaimer: i am not a lawyer and courts are often intellectually dishonest when it comes to reading statutes, so proceed at your own risk. personally, i would not likely shoot someone who i did not believe presented an imminent threat of serious bodily harm/death/etc. (to either me or an innocent third party) no matter where he was...even if in my home.

[Iron_Scorpion]

The key point I overlooked was that it’s not stealing the home it’s just trespassing.

It is disappointing that someone living in your home for a month could only get trespassing charges.

[knight0334]

The key point I overlooked was that it’s not stealing the home it’s just trespassing.

It is disappointing that someone living in your home for a month could only get trespassing charges.

I'm sure there are other charges that would apply. The trespassing one is a sure thing though. Burglary may apply if they commit any other crime in there after unlawfully entering.

There are other means of force that can be used to remove such a person from a dwelling before jumping straight to busting a cap in their asses. lol

First thing to do is call the police unless you are in a situation that your are faced with an immediate threat of which does not allow you the time necessary to get the law on their way.