Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Im looking for some suggestions and insights. I live in western PA. I've had my CCW permit for quite awhile, but just recently started carrying 24/7 within the past year or so. I have been trying to find definitive answers on the legality of carrying concealed at a private school. I'm not a teacher, but do partake in an activity that is connected with my church that takes place on school grounds well after school hours. I don't want to say exactly what this activity is for identity purposes, but I'm sure that you all would agree that one would want to have access to a firearm in this situation. I called the PA state firearms division, and they told me that it would be unlawful. However, they also told me that I couldn't carry in state parks either which I know has recently been over turned. The girl who I spoke with appeared nervous and unsure when I questioned her, so I didn't put much stock in what she had to say. So then I called the NRA-ILA. I belong to the NRA. The girl there told me that it was a felony to carry within 1000 ft of a school, and that federal laws trump state laws. That was news to me. In the meantime, I have come across info published by Gun Owners of America that states that CCW permit holders (ones that have undergone a state background check, such as PA), are exempt from the federal law. So which is it? Does anyone have information or a source of information that could clear this up? The laws and information seem so ambiguous. I don't want to break the law, but I don't want to give up my rights either, especially in a potentially vulnerable situation. Also, does any one know of a case in PA courts that defines the part of the state law that deals with the defense "other lawful activity". IMO, CCW for self defense would be a lawful activity, but I'm not a defense lawyer so MO doesn't mean much in this discussion. Any help or suggestion would be great.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Is it a K-12 school? If so, then it is illegal by statute.

    18 Pa.C.S.A. § 912 Possession of weapon on school property

    (a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

    (b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

    (c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.
    Also, please keep in mind that subsection c of 912 is a DEFENSE not an EXEMPTION. You can, and probably will be charged for violating the section if you are caught carrying in a school. The DEFENSE merely gives you an argument to use in court, which has never been tested (Though there is a case in court right now that is testing it)

    The Federal Gun Free School Zone act has an EXEMPTION in it for people "licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located"
    18 U.S.C. §922(q)(2):
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
    Last edited by lildobe; March 28th, 2010 at 04:43 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageFan View Post
    Im looking for some suggestions and insights. I live in western PA. I've had my CCW permit for quite awhile, but just recently started carrying 24/7 within the past year or so. I have been trying to find definitive answers on the legality of carrying concealed at a private school. I'm not a teacher, but do partake in an activity that is connected with my church that takes place on school grounds well after school hours. I don't want to say exactly what this activity is for identity purposes, but I'm sure that you all would agree that one would want to have access to a firearm in this situation. I called the PA state firearms division, and they told me that it would be unlawful. However, they also told me that I couldn't carry in state parks either which I know has recently been over turned. The girl who I spoke with appeared nervous and unsure when I questioned her, so I didn't put much stock in what she had to say. So then I called the NRA-ILA. I belong to the NRA. The girl there told me that it was a felony to carry within 1000 ft of a school, and that federal laws trump state laws. That was news to me. In the meantime, I have come across info published by Gun Owners of America that states that CCW permit holders (ones that have undergone a state background check, such as PA), are exempt from the federal law. So which is it? Does anyone have information or a source of information that could clear this up? The laws and information seem so ambiguous. I don't want to break the law, but I don't want to give up my rights either, especially in a potentially vulnerable situation. Also, does any one know of a case in PA courts that defines the part of the state law that deals with the defense "other lawful activity". IMO, CCW for self defense would be a lawful activity, but I'm not a defense lawyer so MO doesn't mean much in this discussion. Any help or suggestion would be great.
    Paragraphs are your friend.

    The federal [legally-owned-] Gun Free School Zones law is not an issue because it has an exception for people who are licensed to carry. State law is a problem, but applies only to school grounds, not the stupid 1000 ft exclusion zone.

    In regard to state law, I don't think the law has been tested in court, so it's not clear if "other lawful activity" covers general legal carry. Here's a similar case:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...-property.html

    A guy was arrested for carrying on school property during a non-school event. I don't know where his lawyer is going to go with his defense, but the result will probably be relevant to your situation.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    I love the conflicting information from people who are "supposed" to know the law.

    That's why I come to PAFOA for all my quesitons!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Thanks. This is basically what I expected. So if I hire a security guard, he can't carry either. I don't know much about the license for security guards.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by uniballin View Post
    I love the conflicting information from people who are "supposed" to know the law.

    That's why I come to PAFOA for all my quesitons!
    Yeah, I realized at once that I was on my own. I expect that from the government, but was dissapointed with the NRA. I did tell her explicitly that I had a CCW permit, and she told me that it didn't matter. That statement was totally false.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageFan View Post
    Thanks. This is basically what I expected. So if I hire a security guard, he can't carry either. I don't know much about the license for security guards.
    The way the state law is written, no he cannot. And, to be completely technical, there isn't an exemption for Law Enforcement officers either.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageFan View Post
    I did tell her explicitly that I had a CCW permit
    In Pennsylvania, you are issued a "License to Carry Firearms" not a CCW or a CPL or anything else that says "concealed" on it.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    18 Pa.C.S.A. § 912 Possession of weapon on school property is starting to read to me as providing this kind of logic:

    Crowbar + maintenance worker = ok, lawful.

    Crowbar + janitor = questionable (or teacher and even a Police officer).

    Crowbar + student = unlawful.

    Therefore, they may find exception with LEO and a weapon as authorized. But someone other than a maintenance or cafeteria worker with a knife would be unlawful. A knife is not standard police issue so would fall outside of the scope for an exemption for LEO.

    I don't like it, but it appears to be how they are trying to apply it. If it is a deadly weapon or capable of serious bodily injury, it is unlawful to have it on school grounds unless there is a lawful purpose attached to it AND the person using it.

    Note, however, this should still include a person with a LTCF as being able to use the exemption which they do not want to admit to IMHO.

    I agree, if they can somehow rule out LTCF holder, then it means any exemption for LEO is also gone.
    It is you. You have all the weapons that you need. Now fight. --Sucker Punch

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Concealed Carry Dilemma

    Thanks for the insight. I'm not sure where to go from here, I certainly don't want to break the law and risk loosing my LTCF. However, I strongly feel that it is warranted in this situation.

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