Overcharged for LTCF? It's time to act (Updates Page 23)

[IronSight]

I was going to wait to post this, but it's about time we start changing things.

If you've been charged more than $25 for your license to carry a firearm application, and been wondering what you can do about it, there may just be a solution.

Some counties have been calling the additional charges photo fees, and others have been saying they are for modernization or other costs. Either way, there's no statutory authority for the charges above $25. If you haven't read "18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses" follow the link below to subsection (h) to read an overview of the $25 in fees.

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...6109/licenses/

zackattack784's thread, linked to below, convinced me to finally pursue this issue. My state representative has offered "100% support", and there are several means available to us for addressing this issue.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...post-28-a.html

The biggest thing we need help with is gathering information. If you've been over-charged, please take the time to write a letter to your sheriff requesting a refund of the extra fees. Our letters, and the responses they generate, will allow us to move forward and effect change. The more letters we have, and the more information we get from different counties, the better.

zackattack784's letter that he used is great, because it's short and to the point. Take it as a template if you want, or draft a letter of your own. It's quoted below. (I also recommend including a copy of 6109) If you get a phone call in response, like he did, follow it up with another letter specifically asking for a response in writing.

Contact your state representatives as well. My representative, Gary Day, is able and willing to help, and he believes that many others will want to pursue this as well. If we can all get our representatives ears on this issue we can fix it. There are a lot of approaches we can take, but writing these letters, making phone calls, and getting responses from our local counties is the first step of many.

Dear Sheriff " ":

It has come to my attention that part of 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 regulates the fees that may be charged for a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. According to section (h) the breakdown of fees is as follows:

$19 for the license
An additional temporary fee of $5 for the Firearms License to Carry Modernization Account
An additional fee of $1 for the Firearms License Validation System Account

By my calculations the total amount mandated by statute for a LTCF is $25. There are no exceptions for any other charges and subsection (7) establishes that “A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.”

Having recently applied for and received my LTCF I am requesting a refund in the amount of $X and requesting that you adjust your LTCF pricing from the $X currently charged to the $25 mandated by statute. Enclosed please find a copy of the statute and a copy of my receipt. I look forward to hearing from you and resolving this matter as quickly as possible.


Respectfully Yours,

Thousands of LTCF's are issued every year in the counties that are overcharging applicants. Even if we get only a small fraction of us to write these letters the impact can be huge. I've already convinced people I know to write letters, see how many you can get.

I'm starting to compile the letters from people I know, and I have no problem keeping a paper record of our letters and responses to present to my state rep and others. If you want your letter & responses to be part of that record, e-mail me through the feature on this forum (don't pm, I don't have the space for too many messages that way).

Thanks in advance to everyone working, and willing to work on this issue.

[Derek]

You might have some trouble with Montco because the $42 for the DL style LTCF is voluntary. You don't have to pay more than $26, but you can for a much nicer (and more durable) license.

Then again Montco still enforces the "local PD check card" which is against the rules.

~ Derek

[gnbrotz]

You might have some trouble with Montco because the $42 for the DL style LTCF is voluntary. You don't have to pay more than $26, but you can for a much nicer (and more durable) license.

Then again Montco still enforces the "local PD check card" which is against the rules.

~ Derek

$26 is still more than allowed by the statute.

[West Chester]

Chester County....

License fee is $25.00, this includes $19.00 for the paper license, $5.00 for the state modernization account, & $1.00 for the firearms licesnse validation system account. We also offer a license on a PVC card. It is the size of you drivers license & is an additional $21.00, for a total of $46.00. The plastic is durable & will last the five years the license is valid. Check or money order only. Make Checks payable to “Sheriff of Chester County”.

And yes the misspelling is on their website
http://dsf.chesco.org/sheriff/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=609185

[biggs88]

You might have some trouble with Montco because the $42 for the DL style LTCF is voluntary. You don't have to pay more than $26, but you can for a much nicer (and more durable) license.

Then again Montco still enforces the "local PD check card" which is against the rules.

~ Derek

Bull!

I have the DL style LTCF from Philadelphia. If Philly can charge $25, everwhere else should be able to. Nay, MUST do by law!

[Derek]

Bull!

I have the DL style LTCF from Philadelphia. If Philly can charge $25, everwhere else should be able to. Nay, MUST do by law!

Technically they are. They will issue a LTCF for $25 dollars...it's just not a fancy one. Like I said, it's voluntary to pay the $42 for the nice one. Do I agree with it? No. Will it be hard to fight? Probably.

$26 is still more than allowed by the statute.

It might be $25, I don't remember honestly.

~ Derek

[IronSight]

You might have some trouble with Montco because the $42 for the DL style LTCF is voluntary. You don't have to pay more than $26, but you can for a much nicer (and more durable) license.

Then again Montco still enforces the "local PD check card" which is against the rules.

~ Derek

I still don't see how that's not in violation of "18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses" subsection (e)(3) and (h)(7).

(3) The license to carry a firearm shall be designed to be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be in a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The license shall bear the following:"

(7) A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

Emphasis added.

There is no exception that allows a sheriff to charge more for a fancier version of the license. The costs of a modern version for a ltcf are explicitly covered in subsection (h)(2)(ii).

(ii) An additional temporary fee of $5 shall be remitted by the sheriff to the Firearms License to Carry Modernization Account, which is hereby established as a special restricted receipt account within the General Fund of the State Treasury. Moneys and investment income in the account shall be awarded as grants to sheriffs to implement the system, including grants to reimburse sheriffs for expenses incurred prior to the effective date of this paragraph.

And as for the police check card. If they are making it part of the application process, that runs afoul of subsection (c). Emphasis added.

(c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.

Even on this issue, writing your sheriff, and getting a written response will help. Press the sheriff's office to explain how the requirements do not run afoul of these subsections. Even if you only write the letters and get a response, and do nothing more than make that letter and response available, I believe I can use it to help.

[IronSight]

Chester County....



And yes the misspelling is on their website
http://dsf.chesco.org/sheriff/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=609185

Thanks for the link + quote. A letter asking why the costs for the "PVC card" version aren't covered by subsection (h)(2)(ii) could still go a long way.

[X-Man]

These issues are never as easy as they seem at first glance.

The Legislature can pass anything it wants. If its enactments are not possible, then of what use are they? In this case the Legislature made an assumption of what the cost to process and issue the LTCF would be. They presumed that every county operates under the same economic conditions and cost centers.

I have heard these questions brought up to the county Sheriff, and listened to his reply. Here in Bucks County it simply costs more for the operation of the staff to process the applications. It may cost less in another county. But this Sheriff has to operate within the budget provided to him by the County Commissioners. There is no slack in the budget, so his options are limited. If there are limited funds for applications to be processed then only a finite number of LTCF could be issued. His choice is to collect the needed funds so that his staff can process all those applications that are submitted to the office, Otherwise, the staff does not have the funds to approve them.

So the tough decision can be defined as: limited the amount of LTCF per year subject to the funds available, or provide as many as can be processed using user fees to defer the costs.

I agree with the position of the Bucks County Sheriff. It's better for the applicant to pay for one's processing fees than to be faced with a long waiting period to obtain the LTCF. There are no free services provided by gov't, there's no free lunch. My Sheriff has put his butt on the line so that more of us can be issued a LTCF. It's a very pro 2nd amendment stance.

The problem should be addressed by the Legislature. The Sheriff of this county is doing the best job he can under the situation.

The real underlying question should be why a LTCF is needed in the first place, but that's not the topic of this thread.

[IronSight]

These issues are never as easy as they seem at first glance.

You're right, clearly thousands of Pennsylvanians have no problem abiding by illegal requirements and demands. That definitely makes it hard for those who care what the law says.

The Legislature can pass anything it wants.

If it holds up in court, then yes.

If its enactments are not possible, then of what use are they? In this case the Legislature made an assumption of what the cost to process and issue the LTCF would be. They presumed that every county operates under the same economic conditions and cost centers.

I have heard these questions brought up to the county Sheriff, and listened to his reply. Here in Bucks County it simply costs more for the operation of the staff to process the applications. It may cost less in another county. But this Sheriff has to operate within the budget provided to him by the County Commissioners. There is no slack in the budget, so his options are limited. If there are limited funds for applications to be processed then only a finite number of LTCF could be issued. His choice is to collect the needed funds so that his staff can process all those applications that are submitted to the office, Otherwise, the staff does not have the funds to approve them.

There is grant money available for any county that applies for it, specifically intended to alleviate the costs for processing an LTCF. This is part of the legal fees set out under 18 Pa.C.S § 6109. The sheriff doesn't need to charge more, that's a loud of horse manure.

There is no excuse for ignorance of, or purposeful violation of, the law set out by the state. NONE.

So the tough decision can be defined as: limited the amount of LTCF per year subject to the funds available, or provide as many as can be processed using user fees to defer the costs.

It's obvious that gun owners throughout this state fall for this crap hook line and sinker. There is no reason, none, that the $25 in fees shouldn't cover all of the costs for processing a license. If it's not enough, then the sheriffs across the state would be rallying the legislature to increase fees. Do you know why they aren't? Because a large number of them know what the law is, and are able to easily abide by it.

I agree with the position of the Bucks County Sheriff. It's better for the applicant to pay for one's processing fees than to be faced with a long waiting period to obtain the LTCF. There are no free services provided by gov't, there's no free lunch. My Sheriff has put his butt on the line so that more of us can be issued a LTCF. It's a very pro 2nd amendment stance.

The legal amount of $25 in fees, even when broken down into their separate uses, is plenty to cover LTCF processing. Your sheriff needs to sit down with one of the other counties, and get a lesson in managing costs, if he thinks otherwise.

The problem should be addressed by the Legislature. The Sheriff of this county is doing the best job he can under the situation.

Unless the legislature approves the additional fees, and makes them part of 6109, charging them is illegal and wrong. I can't believe that so many people roll over to the whims of public officials when the right course of action is so readily obvious.

The real underlying question should be why a LTCF is needed in the first place, but that's not the topic of this thread.

That, frankly, I agree with.