Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    In my unqualified opinion you could possibly get in more trouble for NOT revealing that you're intercepting the oral communications. I don't know though.

    You should've asked what they wanted to hide so badly that they didn't want to be recorded?
    Last edited by anonymouse; March 12th, 2010 at 05:39 PM.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Johncj5 View Post
    I wonder if that works both ways, "Officer, will you please turn your dashcam off. We're in a two-party consent state, if one party states they do not wish to be recorded, then you must stop recording."
    Or better yet, the interrigation(sp?) room camera.

    I bet that'll go over well.
    ^^^this....and do they ever inform the people that get pulled over that they are being recorded?....its been several years since I've been pulled over, but I don't recall ever being notified.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    The MPOTEC training quoted above was from 2009, around spring-summer time I believe. Have they updated MPOTEC for 2010 yet? Just curious, as that would be a better reference to give to LEOs if they try to play the game Lansdale is obviously playing.
    "Political Correctness is just tyranny with manners"
    -Charlton Heston

    "[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
    -James Madison, Federalist Papers, No. 46.

    "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." [sic]
    -John Quincy Adams

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
    -Thomas Jefferson

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  4. #14
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    Me: "I have a license to carry firearms, yes."

    Chief: "No, do you have a concealed weapons permit?"

    Me: "I have a license to carry firearms; it's not a permit."

    Chief: "What do you mean, you have a 'license'?"

    I showed him my license and pointed out that nowhere on the card does it say permit, and he read the top line where it spells out LTCF. He said he was surprised to see that "it had changed, that's not what he's used to seeing" and asked the Sergeant if he'd seen it recently.
    I know that since at least 1984 (and probably a while before that) the PA "gun permit"
    has been called a license to carry firearms. I have an old one of my dad's dated 1984. (See below; personal info blocked out)

    It would be interesting to trace the history, somehow, of the PA gun permit/LTCF.

    Note some of the differences on the old one as compared to the current LTCF. And they were only good for one year...I don't know what the cost was.

    Last edited by HiredGoon; March 12th, 2010 at 04:01 PM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post
    In my unqualified opinion you could possibly get in [B]more/B] trouble for NOT revealing that you're intercepting the oral communications. I don't know though.
    While I too am not a lawyer, I highly doubt it would make any substantive difference. If you are being temporarily detained, or even just questioned in a "mere encounter", by the cops then they don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy. Whether you conceal your recording or not doesn't change the fact that they have no reasonable expectation of privacy. Any expectation they have in such a situation is unreasonable.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    I would in no way consider this a "closed issue". They are still going to consider the legal recording of an officer performing his duties as illegal. They are still going to continue to stop people and harass them for open carrying.

    You essentially didn't accomplish anything except get the chief to tell you that he doesn't care about the law and how things should be done. He pretty much much told you that he gonna do it the same way and have his officers do the same. So what this means is that the same line of BS that they fed you the other day, is going to be repeated to the next citizen who open carries. If this is left where it is, I would consider this a FAIL.

    Now, what this means, is that we now know that the opinions and views of this dept are incorrect, and we should do what ever we can to correct this. Gather the information from the case laws, MPOETC manual, statutes and citations. Present them to the chief to clarify the issues. Yes, I'm sure that he has access to all of this material, however by presenting it to him, it shows that you are very well informed and have access to the same materials that he does, and him trying BS you into believing him is not gonna happen. Meet with him again, and go over this with him while keeping a cool head, and not getting heated. Doesn't matter if he agrees with it or not, his opinion is worthless when it comes to the laws. It sounds like he needs to be reminded of this.

    I'm sure some of the others here will have better ideas or ways to about getting this cleared up, but as it currently is it seems as clear as a shit milkshake. Don't drop this here. You have standing to follow through on this. I'm not sure on the ways to get it done though. Some one else should chime in with better ideas, but I hope you get my point.
    Last edited by PGHxdguy; March 12th, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    Viper, you probably didnt know, or missed it in the stickies, but it MAY not be to late.......................

    You should have taken a copy of the State Supreme Court in the case Commonwealth v Ortiz. ( Someone will correct me if Im citing the wrong case)

    In that written decision, the Justices went to very specific and clear language that a MWAG called in tip to police was NOT sufficient for the responding officers to do ANYTHING OTHER THEN OBSERVE the individual that was reported to see if they developed RAS before they could initiate anything other then a "mere encounter " with the citizen in question. That the mere open carrying a firearm, in and of itself, without any other supporting information or the officers actually witnessing something themselves was NOT enough.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud

    Proud to be an Enemy of The State

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    While i whole heartily agree with what you did going in to talk to them, those cops can kiss the fattest part of my ass. Just reinforces my decision to stfu around them

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    I applaud your effort and in that vain I would follow up with a letter,
    or if you wish a E-mail, specifically pointing out the MPOTEC update
    concerning "OpenCarry" Legal Update Course 09-201 and also have the
    Chief review Article G, Miscellaneous Offenses, Chapter 61, Section 6101,
    Short title of subchapter: " This subchapter shall be known and may be
    cited as the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act, Amended 1995. So for
    almost 15 years as of this June, he the Chief, did not know that it is a
    License To Carry Firearms and not a permit. Depending on the District
    Attorney response to the Department, might prove a little embarrassing
    if he upholds the decisions that are the law and may admonish the actions
    of his officer. It may be time to summon your attorney and see if a formal
    complaint may alter their misconceptions and the treatment of citizens.
    Again you acted in true Gentlemenly fashion. The only thing different I
    would have done was being prepared to produce the factual training info
    and UFA for them to review. Then let the chips fall where they lay.
    FUNDAMENTALS

    "All that is needed for Evil to Prevail is for Good Men to
    do Nothing"

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Had a sit-down with the Chief of Lansdale Police

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredGoon View Post
    I know that since at least 1984 (and probably a while before that) the PA "gun permit"
    has been called a license to carry firearms. I have an old one of my dad's dated 1984. (See below; personal info blocked out)

    It would be interesting to trace the history, somehow, of the PA gun permit/LTCF.

    Note some of the differences on the old one as compared to the current LTCF. And they were only good for one year...I don't know what the cost was.



    I can't find it now....but I remember reading the original (was online) 6109 when PA became Shall Issue...and I recall the cost being something along the lines of $2.50.

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