Hair triggers

**PA Traveler** · February 7th, 2010, 06:45 PM

Wow- I can't believe all that information (better than mine BTW) was added while I typed my post.

**TaePo** · February 7th, 2010, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by PA Traveler

How naive can you possibly get? The jury is a bunch of folks who don't know a handgun from a horse chestnut, and who've formed their opinions for the most part based on TV!! They've spent their whole lives being told and believing that "guns are bad" and the people who use them therefore must be.

You don't think people get convicted wrongly in justifiable shootings?

Google Harold Fish. Then tell me it proves your point because he won on appeal after spending three years of his life behind bars, and is now trying to figure out how a retired schoolteacher is going to pay off six figure legal bills.

Do what you want, but I don't think I would tell a knowledgeable attorney and firearm user "You just don't get it". You might have the wrong guy who doesn't get it.

This brings up a very important side point. With the known false convictions rates we have (especially regarding rape and DNA evidence now available), should this be treated as proof that we need to fix our system. Our system was intended to make it difficult to imprison people, even guilty ones, to help prevent convicting someone innocent.

Where have we gone wrong, and how do we rectify it? One suggestion so far is to somehow make the DA position less political by making it less of a stepping stone to other elected offices. But would that then mean no one would want to be a DA?

**PA Traveler** · February 7th, 2010, 07:01 PM

While we're at it, count me as another one who has too little sleep and too much stress from this (snowstorm) weekend.

I guess it just blew my mind to read "will almost always prevail" about anything involving firearms and a jury.

You gentlemen presented far more useful (and calmer) citations and information.

I'll apologize right here for "naive" but maintain that the balance of the post is cause for serious concern. I'd no more want to assume I'd win in court because I knew I was in the right than I'd want to stand in front of the "don't worry, its not loaded" muzzle.

**Lycanthrope** · February 7th, 2010, 07:40 PM

I'm far more concerned about winning the fight than the litigation afterwards.

If a lighter pull significantly help me put rounds on target....then so be it.

The odds are that I will never be in a gunfight. If, in fact, I am.....I wish to stack the deck in my favor at every opportunity. If that would then go to court, there are unknown odds that anyone would notice the trigger pull on my 1911....and I could always cite shelf 1911's with similar pulls. In short, there are many ways to lessen a trigger pull with stock parts and many times stock guns DO come with 3lb triggers........

So....at this point, I kind of figure I am more likely to be struck by lightning than to be convicted for having a "hair trigger" in possible gunfight (in my current lifestyle).

FWIW, my carry gun has a 3lb trigger. That's heavy for me. My deer rifle breaks at 16oz.

Lycansleepsprettygoodatnightthrope

**donm** · February 7th, 2010, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

I'm far more concerned about winning the fight than the litigation afterwards.

If a lighter pull significantly help me put rounds on target....then so be it.

The odds are that I will never be in a gunfight. If, in fact, I am.....I wish to stack the deck in my favor at every opportunity. If that would then go to court, there are unknown odds that anyone would notice the trigger pull on my 1911....and I could always cite shelf 1911's with similar pulls. In short, there are many ways to lessen a trigger pull with stock parts and many times stock guns DO come with 3lb triggers........

So....at this point, I kind of figure I am more likely to be struck by lightning than to be convicted for having a "hair trigger" in possible gunfight (in my current lifestyle).

FWIW, my carry gun has a 3lb trigger. That's heavy for me. My deer rifle breaks at 16oz.

Lycansleepsprettygoodatnightthrope

You're right that the odds are very slim that you'll ever need to pull the trigger but some of your assertions are misleading. If the worst does happen and you are charged, you can safely assume that your gun will will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and they will know exactly what is not "stock" and will certainly measure the trigger pull. As for factory guns with light triggers, these are sold specifically as target guns and more than likely carry a warning that they are not for carry (gun manufacturers have lawyers, too). Police Departments have gone to heavy (in some cases ridiculously heavy) triggers to counteract these accusations.

**TaePo** · February 7th, 2010, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by PA Traveler

... I'd no more want to assume I'd win in court because I knew I was in the right than I'd want to stand in front of the "don't worry, its not loaded" muzzle.

I think you have given us a new T-shirt slogan or message of the day!

**Lycanthrope** · February 8th, 2010, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by donm

You're right that the odds are very slim that you'll ever need to pull the trigger but some of your assertions are misleading. If the worst does happen and you are charged, you can safely assume that your gun will will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and they will know exactly what is not "stock" and will certainly measure the trigger pull. As for factory guns with light triggers, these are sold specifically as target guns and more than likely carry a warning that they are not for carry (gun manufacturers have lawyers, too). Police Departments have gone to heavy (in some cases ridiculously heavy) triggers to counteract these accusations.

There are plenty of 3 lb Kimbers out there that are not target models.

Police departments went to heavy triggers because they were shooting people accidentally due to poor handling and training.

Lycannoworriesatallthrope

**BufordTPisser** · February 9th, 2010, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by donm

You're right that the odds are very slim that you'll ever need to pull the trigger but some of your assertions are misleading. If the worst does happen and you are charged, you can safely assume that your gun will will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and they will know exactly what is not "stock" and will certainly measure the trigger pull. As for factory guns with light triggers, these are sold specifically as target guns and more than likely carry a warning that they are not for carry (gun manufacturers have lawyers, too). Police Departments have gone to heavy (in some cases ridiculously heavy) triggers to counteract these accusations.

I have handled literally thousands of guns over the years in my travels and in my purpose of putting together my little arsenal. I have never seen a gun marked or sold as a target model that had a warning on it that it should never be used for self defense. I understand everyone's concern about "Hair Triggers" and "Killer Bullets", but after talking to numerous lawyers over the years, I have come to the "Personal" conclusion that has been so eloquently stated, that my area of concern is in surviving the fight, not the litigation afterwards. And now that I live in Florida, I am even more convinced of that. Because the legislature of Florida, in their infinite wisdom have made sure to put into their stand your ground law, that the person that you are forced to kill under that law and their survivors are not allowed to sue. I guess that I should have qualified the fact that I was basing my current carry decisions on that law. Hopefully PA will wise up and pass something similar.

These are two key provisions in the Florida Stand Your Ground Law.

# In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

# If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.

**BufordTPisser** · February 9th, 2010, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

There are plenty of 3 lb Kimbers out there that are not target models.

Police departments went to heavy triggers because they were shooting people accidentally due to poor handling and training.

Lycannoworriesatallthrope

Very well stated and very correct. I believe that a lot of the LEO departments that went to very heavy trigger pulls was directly related to the rash of bad LEO shoots that were all over the news.