Man with a knife-defending with your pistol vs just defending

[mercop]

We tried a few things during force on force and here is what we found. Even from concealment very few people had any problems dumping rounds COM into the charging bad guy with the knife. The problem was because of hours and hours on the range people locked out with both hands on the gun. Muscles contract under stress and they would not let go use their off hand to deflect, defend. Since the vast majority of the time someone running towards you with a knife will be right handed and using an angle one attack (traveling high right to low left) most student suffered cuts to the left side of their throat. The knife blade was often channeled here by the extended arms and the head.

It seams that the two hand clinched position is triggered by dropping the strong side foot back as we draw. When students worked on reacting to their normal reaction they were more likely to engage with one hand and have the other to block/evade.

What I think is more likely than an edged weapon attack is an impact weapon attack. You may be able to take one good cut or stab and continue to shoot, retain your weapon. But one shot to the head with a hammer or tire iron, and I doubt it. Attacking with an impact weapon in way described will look just like the edged weapon attack.

Only training can teach you timing and distance. I would say that under 3-4 yards you entire initial reaction will need to be open handed to fight to your gun. From 4-7 you stand a better chance of getting rounds off and defending with a combination of open hand combatives and your pistol. What we have seen is a lot of wrapping and control with the reaction side hand as the pistol gets a contact shot up and under the sternum. This of course if you recognize the charge as involving a deadly threat. We have also noted that in bright day light students fail to see a bright Blue Rings Box Cutter in the hand of the attacker. - George

[Hawk]

In this scenario, what do left handed people do to fend off right handed attacks? What do right handed people do to fend of left handed attacks? Switch your gun to weakside?
Has anyone considered using a front leg snap kick or knee stomp to thwart the attacker closing the distance long enough to deploy your handgun? Or how about dropping to your back to keep him from reaching any vital targets with his knife or club? You can keep him at bay with one leg by kicking or blocking until you dispatch him with your handgun.

[mercop]

Since 93%+ people are right handed that is what we concentrate on. However, Unloved is our resident southpaw and I use him to keep it interesting. You make up for the 7% with more violence. In most cases I don't think the snap kick would do much to change the line of a charging attacker, even worse it would encourage you to stay in front of him. Just my thoughts- George

[Hawk]

Since 93%+ people are right handed that is what we concentrate on. However, Unloved is our resident southpaw and I use him to keep it interesting. You make up for the 7% with more violence. In most cases I don't think the snap kick would do much to change the line of a charging attacker, even worse it would encourage you to stay in front of him. Just my thoughts- George

My assumption (not knowing the details of the scenario you run) was the attacker is close (maybe 10 feet or less) and wants to close the distance to utilize his knife or club. You need to gain time by fending off his attack until you can deploy your handgun. In this scenario you may not have time to get your body moving out of the way, a snap kick or knee stomp could be a tool you can utilize quickly to thwart/delay his advance. I choose the leg or foot as a weapon because they are longer than his arms, which helps keep his weapons out of reach of his target. I think there is an advantage of looking at these scenarios as if you don't have a gun and what your response might be if you had to deal with an attack initially with "empty hands".

BTW, I'm a SouthPaw. I had to learn how to deal with you right handed people.

[Shawn.L]

Inside "contact distance" a kick to the knee would be devestating IMO.

What I have seen doing FoF and in classes involving contact is that there are a few things that those without a MA background have a lot of trouble with.

Using feet and getting close mostly stick out.

Seems a lot of people with the "Ill just shoot em" mentality think they will never need to touch or be touched at all.

now at 21 foot drill distances there is plenty of space and time to MOVE and get the gun out.

Speaking of kicks though, funny story.

I was at one of my sons Karate classes, they spent all class doing all kinds of wacky kicks. Spinning, sideways, jumping, ect.
Ive been in a few fights, and seen many more. I remeber being his age and having done a year of Karate I tried kicking in a fight I was in, and got beat down.
So I was poking a little fun at him, "what ya gonna karate kid, hi-ya!" ect ect ect
We got home, put on our pads, and did some sparring. We like to rough house sometimes
In the middle of me coming over the top to strike him in the head he steps in and BAM SNAP KICK right up into my chest.
I had to stumble back, and he won that match.
I simply didnt see it coming from down there, and the power behind it, even from someone half my size, was stunning.

but you gotta know how to do it, and have practiced.

Georges classes are centered around people with no MA background doing things that arent that hard.
There are more effective techniques, but I dont think most people are going to get that into the topic and practice enough to be able to perform them well under stress.

[Carnes]

Inside "contact distance" a kick to the knee would be devestating IMO.

I'm more inclined to think that a kick to the knee could be devastating.

Regardless of what the tactic is, people tend to get wrapped up in their ideal solution. (I don't really think this applies to you Shawn, but it is worth mentioning) Whether it be shooting, kicking, stabbing or a flying arm-bar, when individuals focus on one specific attack and expect that it will win the day are limiting their options for success.


Kicks to the knee are not allowed in most MMA competitions, not because they have a high % chance of finishing the fight, but because they tend to lead to permanent injuries. It's pretty hard to get a kick just right such that it will actually break the attackers leg.

I like to learn as many techniques as I can, but I don't typically want to rely on techniques that I have not successfully applied. I have never broken a person's knee by kicking it, so I don't trust myself to properly execute the nuances of the technique when I have other options that I am more confident with available. That is not to say that I won't kick someone in the knee... I like options... I'm just expressing my concern about 'theory' practice vs 'application' practice.

[mercop]

I have seen plenty of guys in the UFC bust their a$$ falling backwards when their opponent hooked their leg and/or pushed back in reaction to a side kick. As a Judo and Ju Jitsu guy and elbow out to the side, or a leg hung out for a split second too long is a feast for me to capitalize on.- George

[mojo]

Shawn ... I forget what style of MA lil' buck is taking, but I remember when I took Taekwondo. I've witnessed a lot of sparing where kicking was used ... been on the receiving end quite often. My white gi never stayed too white.

[Shawn.L]

Shawn ... I forget what style of MA lil' buck is taking, but I remember when I took Taekwondo. I've witnessed a lot of sparing where kicking was used ... been on the receiving end quite often. My white gi never stayed too white.

American Karate

Carnes, we do not disagree

from the rest of my post:

but you gotta know how to do it, and have practiced.

and

There are more effective techniques, but I dont think most people are going to get that into the topic and practice enough to be able to perform them well under stress.

in this last one perhaps I should have said "other techniques some may be able to deploy effectively"

yes, could would have been the better word choice in the part you quoted.