Full Auto Owners- Pat Tillman related question

[Zach]

Some really shady details are surfacing about the death of Pat Tillman. In addition to the coverup about friendly fire going all the way up the chain to a General's rank, the army medical examiner was apparently completely stonewalled when he express concerns about the nature of Tillman's wounds. It's now known that Tillman got shot with a tight group of 3 rounds in the forehead. Read about it here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...602025_pf.html


Anyway, Ive never even shot a full-auto 5.56, so I dont know exactly what to make of such a grouping. How close would you have to be to the target to get a 4" grouping of 3 shots in full auto? What about 3-round burst? Would it be easier to hold a tight pattern with a big machinegun like the SAW?


Im just having a lot of trouble reconciling that grouping with a situation where the shoots wasnt looking directly at his head at pretty close range. But then, if it were murder, I can't imaging someone wouldn't have come forward by now.

[danp]

I can do a 4" grouping with my M16 easily at 30 feet (what I shoot at), especially for a 4 round burst.

Never really tested to see how far out I can go.

It's much easier to control automatic fire than most people think.

[JP8]

I think there has always been cases of enlisted men "fragging" officers but I've never heard of this. But who knows..dissention, political, etc.

I have NEVER fired a full auto before. But, my common sense tells me it would be easier to group close with an auto (in bursts) as compared to a semi-auto or (non-burst) auto. My common sense is also 50/50. 60/40 on dry days.

[craigc]

Most of the M-4's currently being used are 3 round burst and semi

[1FingrCHan]

Lot of Tillman "murder stories" are on the net now. This one might be of interest to some
http://alternet.org/waroniraq/53827/...790&pID=676610

Some said he was killed because he planned to speak to Noam Chomsky about his anti-war view. Bad mistake, it is like Jane Fonda visiting Hanoi to some Nam vet. Tillman should secretly meet with Mr. Chomsky and not letting the whole US Army know about his intention. That dude was too "righteous" and that probably costed him his life. Just my thoughts, jhe he he


1FingrCHan

[axmdr40]

Theres this thing called the "Fog of War" I'm sure you've heard of it...I think that's what happened here and a lot of people are stretching an already intensely foggy report of what happened to fit into nice little conspiracy theory stories...A horrible thing happened. An American soldier died under fire from his fellow soldiers. But murder of a respected Army Ranger because he may not have had anti-war views? The military is not a bunch of zombies who instantly march to the beat of one drum, and there is an extremely eclectic range of political views amongst soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.


Let a sleeping soldier rest.

[1FingrCHan]

Theres this thing called the "Fog of War" I'm sure you've heard of it...I think that's what happened here and a lot of people are stretching an already intensely foggy report of what happened to fit into nice little conspiracy theory stories...A horrible thing happened. An American soldier died under fire from his fellow soldiers. But murder of a respected Army Ranger because he may not have had anti-war views? The military is not a bunch of zombies who instantly march to the beat of one drum, and there is an extremely eclectic range of political views amongst soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.


Let a sleeping soldier rest.

Look, I am not going to fight your opinion on this forum. Setting emotional issue aside, and from these articles, one can look further into an issue that is still troubling many American. Maybe you are not interested, you don't have to see it.

http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-in...cons_1145.html.

This is from the above article:

"Pat Tillman’s Special Forces unit split into two groups to try to encircle enemy forces. While it’s easy to imagine a poorly trained National Guard unit firing on itself, the Special Forces soldiers spend thousands of hours training and are extremely unlikely to make this mistake. During the incident, in which Tillman was killed, he had called on the radio for the other soldiers to cease fire. The fact that he was shot three times in the head AFTER pleading on the radio for a cease fire is highly suspicious. Whoever shot Tillman was close enough to shoot him in the head, which implies they had a good look at him. The Afghan rebels typically have beards and turbans –quite a contrast from a US army helmet. An assassin could have been laying in wait for Tillman’s unit to pass by or may even have been a corrupted member of Tillman’s unit. The fact that the neocons lied about Tillman’s death when it was first announced to the public, suggests they have something to hide. Were they hiding an embarrassing friendly fire incident. or an assassination?"

Don't try to use blind patriotism on people, because most, like the respected Tillman, ain't dumb. And about your "opnion" of the "fog of war"......you meant soldiers just fire their rifles in confusions at anything that resembles a GI or a towel headed Taliban?
Remember this is the highly trained Ranger they are talking about. I doubt that they would crap their pants and fire at anything that moves.

In addition, there are articles about Tillmnan clothing items that were burnt

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/05....lman-0721.html

Here is the quote from the above articles:

"Within hours of Tillman's shooting, Army officers ordered the burning of his blood-soaked uniform and the destruction of his bullet-riddled body armor. Army spokesman Paul Boyce said soldiers had already determined that friendly fire caused Tillman's death and burned his clothes and armor because they viewed these items as a biohazard.

Destruction of evidence in a case of friendly fire is a violation of U.S. military regulations. Soldiers also burned his journal, the IG's report stated. "I'm angry they did that," said Mary Tillman. The soldier who destroyed Tillman's clothing, body armor and possessions said he was ordered to do so "to prevent security violations, leaks and rumors."


Yep sure, they got something to hide, aren't they, he he heh



1FingrCHan

[axmdr40]

Of course its troubling to many Americans...It should be troubling to ALL Americans that a soldier was killed by friendly fire. I DO find it troubling that there also was some sort of cover up initially about how Pat Tillman died. Mistakes were made, conflicting reports, bits of information instead of the whole story all combined to create a confusing situation. Initially, the boots on the ground probably didn't even know who or how Tillman was killed. The Army releases a press release that Pat Tillman was killed fighting Taliban forces in Afghanistan. The media runs with it...a great story about a war hero who gave up fame and fortune to fight for his country...pretty soon the whole situation is blown out of proportion and the whole story starts to come out little by little. Those in-charge slowly begin the process of investigating the incident, and don't release much information to the public because that would further perpetuate the confusion.

So called evidence that Tillman was murdered after radio transmissions holds no ground with me. Their are just too many variables. What type of radio were both ends using, were they using headsets, or handsets, how did the weather and/or terrain effect clarity of communications? Were they double keying the mikes? Have you ever tried to communicate over the net while under heavy fire?

Was Tillman wearing a helmet, or was he dressed with some sort of ethnic garb like many special forces and ranger team do while operating with the afghans? What were the light, weather, and terrain conditions? No one is saying they were just spraying and praying, and yes, these are highly trained and motivated Rangers, but they are not immune to confusion on the battlefield.

Was the officer who allegedly ordered Tillman's clothing burned aware of the evidence that this may have been a friendly fire event? The articles you sight may imply that, but that doesn't mean its true.

Don't try to aim discredit at someone by using the term blind patriotism...I have merely stated an opposing viewpoint.

If you are going to sit behind your computer screen and accuse US Army Soldiers and the United States Army of the intentional and malicious murder of a US Army Ranger, you better bring some damn good rock solid proof and more than the ramblings of a bunch of fringe media and conspiracy theorists looking for a juicy plot.

[nlcrsn]

1st off Spec Ops dont run around in Kevlar, They have uniforms but not the traditional military style. They try to blend w/ native customs to get comfort & aid from locals. Spec Ops travel as lightly as possible, as much ammo as possible and little else, next time your @ the range put a mic in your big ears have 10 - 30 guys go full tilt and repeat what some1 says to you over that mic, now add the tunnell vision, adrenaline of combat, that shuts down all unnecessary bodily functions that arent needed for survival, HEARING, smell, peripherial vision etc. Something may have happened, thats unclear. But lets not throw myths into the air. I can see people who have been in such an environment discussing possibilities, conjecture isn't needed.

[VeryPrivate]

Tilman was a Ranger, not Special Forces.