READ FIRST: Where you CAN and CANNOT Carry weapons in the State of Pennsylvania

[R L Suehr]

Hi all. Just a quick question. I frequently have to go to a building that leases to several businesses. One of these is a private elementary school. To access these businesses you must use a common lobby where children are dismissed through. Any trouble carrying there ?
Entrance to school itself is second floor, through a locked door.

1. Do you have a LTCF?
2. How is the building setup?
Is it a strip mall type setup or a main lobby with different businesses off of it.
3. Is it a k-12 type school or a pre-k/child care school.

I can see 912 coming into play at different points depending on how the setup is, if it's a k-higher grade school.

§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon"
in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime),
"weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be
limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-
chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool,
instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily
injury.
(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on
the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to
or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational
institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed
by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary
parochial school.
(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is
possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised
school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful
purpose.
(Oct. 16, 1980, P.L.978, No.167, eff. 60 days)

If you don't have a LTCF, then I would think about all of the area is no go due to the federal gun free school zone. If you don't have the license you can't get within 1000 ft of the school zone. With the license then the above 912 is more of the issue. There is a defense of possessing it for "other lawful purposes" in there, but there's no case law supporting it.

[Pastor Hadley R. Hayes]

1. Do you have a LTCF?
2. How is the building setup?
Is it a strip mall type setup or a main lobby with different businesses off of it.
3. Is it a k-12 type school or a pre-k/child care school.

I can see 912 coming into play at different points depending on how the setup is, if it's a k-higher grade school.



If you don't have a LTCF, then I would think about all of the area is no go due to the federal gun free school zone. If you don't have the license you can't get within 1000 ft of the school zone. With the license then the above 912 is more of the issue. There is a defense of possessing it for "other lawful purposes" in there, but there's no case law supporting it.

Hi. Thanks for your input. To answer: 1. Have LTCF 2. Multiple story building with offices off of lobby 3.K-12 School. Also school and business patrons share parking lots. I would prefer to just leave firearm in vehicle. In case your wondering G26 or G17 at 1 o'clock in the 'Incog" holster by G-Code.

[GunLawyer001]

It should be pointed out that section 912 isn't a "gun free schools" law, it applies to ANYTHING that is "any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury." That covers pretty much anything other than a handful of fog. Sharpened pencils, that tire iron in your car, the shoulder strap from your book bag....almost anything that can be used to club, slash, stab, choke, smother or otherwise injure an person of any age, in any physical condition. I bet that thousands of folks have been smothered to death with pillows.

The "other lawful purpose" exception is treated as ambiguous by our courts, and it may only be a matter of time before some legal eagle loses a case and takes it up to the appellate courts, who hate us with a passion. There's at least one footnote where a PA judge has argued that the exception should be limited to security guards and others whose jobs require that they carry guns; there's no valid way to read the statute to interpret it that way, but a bad lawyer could get that result anyway.

The plain meaning of "other lawful purpose" is that you have a purpose for having the weapon on you, and it's not one of the listed ones, but it's lawful. That's it. Prove that you have a lawful purpose, and a real court will acquit you. The burden on the DA should be to prove that your purpose was unlawful, such as for a robbery or murder, or that you were concealing without an LTCF.

That being said, I only know of one case that went to trial on a pure "gun on school property" charge, without any criminal act. We won that case (the Anfuso case, discussed on PAFOA a few times, and Chris is a member here.) Most charges are pled down, because a conviction will make you a non-gun owner for life, so most defendants take ARD or a summary conviction.

It's a fact question whether a common area counts as the "in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to
or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school." If you're found with a gun and there are swarms of kids passing by between classes or going home from classes, a skittish jury could decide that you broke the law. Or not. It's a risk either way, because unarmed people get mugged, and guns are stolen from cars a lot.

[Jlaroche1980]

I don't know if this has been addressed as this is a very long thread. In the first post it is stated that you can open carry in a class 1 city if you have an LTCF. In order to open carry in a Class 1 city your LTCF MUST be issued by the class 1 city. If you have a LTCF from any of the outlying county's, ie Bucks Montgomery Chester Berks, you CANNOT open carry in a class 1 city aka Philadelphia. And you can be arrested for it.

[Statkowski]

In order to open carry in a Class 1 city your LTCF MUST be issued by the class 1 city. If you have a LTCF from any of the outlying county's, ie Bucks Montgomery Chester Berks, you CANNOT open carry in a class 1 city aka Philadelphia. And you can be arrested for it.

Licenses to Carry Firearms (LTCFs) are valid statewide. What county of residence it was issued in is irrelevant to carrying, openly or concealed, in Philadelphia. Perhaps our poster has a citation to support his statement?

[GunLawyer001]

I don't know if this has been addressed as this is a very long thread. In the first post it is stated that you can open carry in a class 1 city if you have an LTCF. In order to open carry in a Class 1 city your LTCF MUST be issued by the class 1 city. If you have a LTCF from any of the outlying county's, ie Bucks Montgomery Chester Berks, you CANNOT open carry in a class 1 city aka Philadelphia. And you can be arrested for it.

Mostly incorrect, except that you can be arrested for pretty much anything in Philly.

Licenses to Carry Firearms (LTCFs) are valid statewide. What county of residence it was issued in is irrelevant to carrying, openly or concealed, in Philadelphia. Perhaps our poster has a citation to support his statement?

Totally correct. It's a state license, issued by county agents.

[39flathead]

I think post 714 should be deleted due to its false content.

[streaker69]

I don't know if this has been addressed as this is a very long thread. In the first post it is stated that you can open carry in a class 1 city if you have an LTCF. In order to open carry in a Class 1 city your LTCF MUST be issued by the class 1 city. If you have a LTCF from any of the outlying county's, ie Bucks Montgomery Chester Berks, you CANNOT open carry in a class 1 city aka Philadelphia. And you can be arrested for it.

This is 100% incorrect. Someone may have told you that, probably lawn enforcement officer, but they were wrong. An LTCF issued from any county in the state is valid to carry in a city of the worst class.

[knight0334]

I don't know if this has been addressed as this is a very long thread. In the first post it is stated that you can open carry in a class 1 city if you have an LTCF. In order to open carry in a Class 1 city your LTCF MUST be issued by the class 1 city. If you have a LTCF from any of the outlying county's, ie Bucks Montgomery Chester Berks, you CANNOT open carry in a class 1 city aka Philadelphia. And you can be arrested for it.

Do not confuse NYC and NYS with Philly and PA.

[PASE717]

This is 100% incorrect. Someone may have told you that, probably lawn enforcement officer, but they were wrong. An LTCF issued from any county in the state is valid to carry in a city of the worst class.

LawnEnforcementOfficer.jpg
http://production.cdn.annarbortees.c...png?1374505311
Those damn lawn enforcement officers are known for passing incorrect information.