Open carry/ revocation of LTCF after "302"

[27hand]

Hi Peter and welcome.

Given your explanation, I gather that no permanent record of an unwarranted arrest and/or mental observation would stay with you and the sheriffs office would reissue your LTCF, or would it initially cost me big bucks to retain your services to get it back and eventually have a couple bucks left over to buy that new Colt LE6920

Oh and by the way, You are easy to find. I have been to your office and I still shoot your old rifle (just not nearly enough).

Thank you for the info.






27hans






[QUOTE=PeteG;77494]

I was reading another thread asking where people have openly carried and how it went.

I have a question regarding the retention of your LTCF if you have been improperly arrested and "302'd" by an officer that doesn't know the law.

. . . . The young deputy? told me that if he saw me carrying openly on a Pittsburgh street, he would arrest and "302" me or anyone openly carrying. I never got to the point of city of the first class Etc, etc.


First, let me say I am not familiar with how these "quote" things work, so if I screw it up, sorry.

With respect to the substance of your inquiry:

There are some officers out there who remain confused about their role in society, including the limits on thier authority. There will always will be at least a few. So you have a choice: stand up for what is right, or design your life to the lowest common denominator.

There is no legal basis in Pennsylvania for arresting a person merely because he or she is carrying openly (other than in certain restricted areas and in Philadelphia County). To refer one for mental observation, on the premise that one who carries openly is per se mentally ill or incompetent such as to present a danger to himself or others (a "302"), goes beyond simply misunderstanding the law. It is a deliberate and malicious abuse of existing law and procedure for the purpose of punishing the exercise of legal right (recently acknowledged by a federal court of appeals to be a constitutionally protected right), and to indtimidate others who may wish to exercise the same right. The deputy would be wrong for arresting you, wrong for attempting to refer you for mental observation, and was already wrong for threatening those on the list with punitive action if they exercise a right this "young deputy" does not feel they should have.

My name is Peter Georgiades. My office is a 2313 East Carson Street, on the South Side of Pittsburgh. I am quite easy to find. I am also often seen carrying a sidearm openly in this neighborhood (as well as at local ranges and various business establishments between there and those ranges). I have been doing so for 10 years or so, without any incident or untoward consequences.

If you would advise the "young deputy" of my identity, activities and location, he will be free to come and arrest me and refer me for mental observation . . . after which I will be pleased to afford him, his superiors and his deparment a protracted lesson in constitutional law and federal civil procedure. In the meantime, tell him I think he is both bully and a fool, and he should shut the hell up.

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Mr. Georgiades,

I am pleased to see that an attorney of your experience has joined our forum!

Block quotes are easy to use. When you have a section of text you wish to quote, type the word "QUOTE" surrounded by brackets -- [] where you wish the block quotation to begin. To close the block quotation, type the word "/QUOTE" (with the backslash in front of it), again, surrounded by brackets -- []. (The backslash signifies that the quote -- or whatever else you were doing -- is finished.)

Again, welcome.

[MarcS]

first off, it's a lot of paperwork to 302 someone. Most cops aren't that vindictive. Secondly, they must articulate a valid reason that you are a danger to yourself or others.

[Pa. Patriot]

...Secondly, they must articulate a valid reason that you are a danger to yourself or others.

Yup, and neither carrying lawfully nor being illegally detained or arrested is one of them

[Emptymag]

first off, it's a lot of paperwork to 302 someone. Most cops aren't that vindictive. Secondly, they must articulate a valid reason that you are a danger to yourself or others.

Yeah, as I read this, I'm thinking the verbal "threat" to 302 someone is no more than a scare tactic to attempt to keep people from carrying openly. I mean c'mon... WHO wants to be 302'd? That's a scary thought to to the average Joe who knows he can't afford to risk having that happen! There's a LOT of gun owners who are just like those smart-assed cops... clueless, that is.

[Steve in PA]

I seem to remember reading the OP's comment on another board.

A LEO can NOT 302 someone for open carry. The sheriff who told you this has no idea what he is talking about, knows nothing of the gun laws and has probably never, ever 302'd someone.

I have had to 302 several people and I must articulate in the paper work what the person did or why he is a danger to himself or others. Open carry is NOT a danger to the carried or any other person.

If you ever see the sheriff who told you he'd 302 someone for open carry, tell him that this LEO thinks he should change jobs and learn to flip hamburgers for a living.

[Frenchy]

technically, anyone can 302 you, you can 302 a friend/wife and so on.

Can the police or a physician get a psychiatric examination for a mentally ill individual? Under Section 302(b) police officers or physicians can take an at risk individual to a psychiatric facility without a warrant. This must be based upon personal observation that an individual's behavior indicates that he or she could be severely mentally disabled and pose a clear and present danger to herself/himself. Admission depends a psychiatrist's examination.

Problem to this, is you can submit yourself to mental care before they 302 you.

What is meant by a "302?" Section 302 is the part of the Act relating to treatment without consent for observed behavior constituting a clear and present danger to the individual and/or others. The behavior must have occurred in the past 30 days. Under Section 302(a) any responsible party can petition for an involuntary evaluation by stating that an individual may be severely mentally disabled.

So if you consent to the treatment, they cant claim the 302, it is simply a 201

What is the Mental Health Procedures Act?
It is the statute concerning the voluntary and involuntary treatment of seriously mentally ill individuals in Pennsylvania. It applies to all psychiatric hospitalization in the state.
What is meant by a "201?" Section 201 is that part of the Act relating to voluntary consent for a psychiatric examination and treatment. Anyone 14 years of age or older can consent to inpatient treatment. Admission is based on the determination of a psychiatrist that this level of care is needed.

from http://www.mces.org/302FAQs.html

[MarcS]

frenchy is correct there. a 201 is a fast way out of a 302 for the sane and wrongfully accused.

[PeteG]

Welcome, check this area out:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/faq.php?f..._read_and_post

Scroll the whole page for FAQ's

Nothing like reading the directions, huh?

Thanks. I'm just not very computer oriented!

[Lycanthrope]

frenchy is correct there. a 201 is a fast way out of a 302 for the sane and wrongfully accused.

Yep....and a 302 is harder to get than you think.