I don't understand the connection between guns, political party, and religion

[Virtualmatt]

It seems to me that the majority of gun supporters in America are vocal conservative christians, which has unfortunately attached such a stigma to all gun-owners. I've been shooting since I was 5, and have been a strong supporter of the second amendment all my life. Contrary to the stigma, though, I am neither a conservative nor a christian.

I don't understand why both political parties pick and choose which parts of the constitutional amendments to support, and which to ignore.

Many Democrats ignore the 2nd amendment while many Republicans ignore the part of the of the 1st amendment that states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", demanding creationism and prayer in schools, and "In God We Trust" on our currency.

I'm dreaming for a day when both parties will stop trying to limit the rights our founding fathers set out, and start standing for legitimate issues. Leave your bibles at home, and bring the guns.

[PennsyPlinker]

Typical liberal - you pick what is best for all of us, and tell us how to act. How about letting the rest of us express our rights without you telling us how to do it?

[H.E. Pennypacker]

...many Republicans ignore the part of the of the 1st amendment that states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", demanding creationism and prayer in schools, and "In God We Trust" on our currency.

I was with you until you said that.

The only reason some 'demand' creationism to be taught is to give students a fuller education. Science can't explain everything, but it is good at explaining a lot. Creationism is just another aspect of teaching. It will broaden a person's view of the world if they know about the Big Bang Theory and creationism. Then they can decide for themselves which to believe. What is wrong with the free flow of ideas in an environment that is supposed to be an incubator for such things?

I am not religious, but I'm a theist, as were most (all?) of the founders. They believed our rights were instilled upon us by a creator, and that the only thing government is to do is to protect these rights. You take away God, and suddenly the government is your God. I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a society that allows worship of a God rather than one that bans it.

'In God We Trust'? Pick your battles.

[Virtualmatt]

Haha, what? I haven't told you how to express anything. I've only said both parties shouldn't be ignoring any of the amendments.

[PennsyPlinker]

Haha, what? I haven't told you how to express anything. I've only said both parties shouldn't be ignoring any of the amendments.

Sorry Matt, you have attached stigma to Christians, and then told us to leave our Bibles at home so we don't mess with your "sophisticated" ways. I'll take my BIBLE anywhere I want, got it? And I take my gun too. I'm going to stop now so I don't get banned for writing what I really think.

[Virtualmatt]

I was with you until you said that.

The only reason some 'demand' creationism to be taught is to give students a fuller education. Science can't explain everything, but it is good at explaining a lot. Creationism is just another aspect of teaching. It will broaden a person's view of the world if they know about the Big Bang Theory and creationism. Then they can decide for themselves which to believe. What is wrong with the free flow of ideas in an environment that is supposed to be an incubator for such things?

I am not religious, but I'm a theist, as were most (all?) of the founders. They believed our rights were instilled upon us by a creator, and that the only thing government is to do is to protect these rights. You take away God, and suddenly the government is your God. I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a society that allows worship of a God rather than one that bans it.

'In God We Trust'? Pick your battles.

Teaching creationism isn't giving anybody a fuller education; it's teaching religion in schools. Having just graduated a top-tier university with a degree in biology, I find it disturbing that people still are trying to pretend evolution isn't real. There isn't any empirical evidence against it, while there isn't any empirical evidence for creationism. Teaching creationism in publicly-funded schools violates the part of the first amendment that states the government will no endorse any religion, as does putting "In God we trust" on federal currency.

And your last line, "I'd rather live in a society that allows worship of a God rather than one that bans it", is a straw hat argument. I made no such claim. Having a government not sponsor a religion isn't banning it.

[Virtualmatt]

Sorry Matt, you have attached stigma to Christians, and then told us to leave our Bibles at home so we don't mess with your "sophisticated" ways. I'll take my BIBLE anywhere I want, got it? And I take my gun too. I'm going to stop now so I don't get banned for writing what I really think.

It's pretty clear from the context that I didn't write that line to be taken literally. What I meant by it was stop trying to put religion into legislation and publicly funded education, as it violates the first amendment. If you want to physically carry your bible all over the place, by all means, go for it. I have no problem with it, nor does the constitution.

Now, I hope we're clear.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Teaching creationism isn't giving anybody a fuller education; it's teaching religion in schools. Having just graduated a top-tier university with a degree in biology, I find it disturbing that people still are trying to pretend evolution isn't real. There isn't any empirical evidence against it, while there isn't any empirical evidence for creationism. Teaching creationism in publicly-funded schools violates the part of the first amendment that states the government will no endorse any religion, as does putting "In God we trust" on federal currency.

And your last line, "I'd rather live in a society that allows worship of a God rather than one that bans it", is a straw hat argument. I made no such claim. Having a government not sponsor a religion isn't banning it.

How is teaching creationism endorsing religion? You can have a little tangential topic in your science class or history class explaining how a lot of people believe our universe was created by a supreme being and how that science can't definitively explain how our universe came to be. I don't recall mentioning evolution, which doesn't have to be connected to creationism.

Obviously people use 'faith' (call it religion, if you must) to fill in gaps that can't be explained by science.

There are no prayer sessions...no need for it. But they're already teaching religious topics in school. It's been a while for me, but I remember learning about the Egyptians and all the gods they had. Maybe I should go back and sue my middle school!

[thatJeffguy]

I agree completely.

I've got a wide range of hobbies and, as such, a wide spectrum of friends.


When I hang out with my America-loving gun buddies, we talk about how un-Constitutional the NFA is, how absurd it is to obtain a "license" to exercise a right, how any regulation of firearms is an abridgement of our natural rights. Then, some of them will go on to say how we should increase mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent drug offenders, or "crack down" on <gambling, prostitution, dope smokers, whatever>.

I'll hang out with my co-workers, a lot of them are hippies and the like, and they'll talk all day about how the federal government is sticking it's nose into California's state business trying to legislate how the sate deals with marijuana. They'll state, rightly, that any laws made by man must end at our natural border, our skin, and what we do internally is up to us. We're the Coast Guard of our own bodies (That's actually from a good friend, Dr. Alexander Shulgin). Then I'll mention firearms, and they flip out. They believe a disarmed citizenry is the best option, they believe that it's our "duty" to "children" to prevent guns from existing, or whatever.

Neither side can see their hypocrisy. As they aim toprotect their own rights they're focused on impinging upon the rights of others. I think that Ron Paul's campaign is really helping people see through this crap. Liberty means that both you and the other guy get to do as they please as long as they don't impinge upon your rights.

Glad others understand that

[Virtualmatt]

How is teaching creationism endorsing religion? You can have a little tangential topic in your science class or history class explaining how a lot of people believe our universe was created by a supreme being and how that science can't definitively explain how our universe came to be. I don't recall mentioning evolution, which doesn't have to be connected to creationism.

Obviously people use 'faith' (call it religion, if you must) to fill in gaps that can't be explained by science.

There are no prayer sessions...no need for it. But they're already teaching religious topics in school. It's been a while for me, but I remember learning about the Egyptians and all the gods they had. Maybe I should go back and sue my middle school!

There's a misunderstanding here, I think. Teaching what certain religions believe is fine, so long as it is in a social studies class. Your Egyptian history is a good example of that. What I have a problem with is teaching something like creationism as an alternative to evolution, which is ludicrous. Teaching ABOUT religion is different than teaching religion. Nobody wants to outlaw theology classes.

As far as religion explaining "gaps": Just because science hasn't concluded something yet does not mean it's correct to explain it away with a supernatural being. Before science understood lightening, it wasn't correct to say "Well that's god!" It wasn't any more correct then than it is now.