Vehicile Tactics & some general thoughts

[mercop]

Today I attended a Vehicle Tactics Course on by Bob Derosiers from Argive Defense System. I was there to kind of hang out, be a safety at times, chime in, and be the bad guy for several scenarios.


There were no “new” shooters in the class. Everyone had previous training and was range safe. With 10 students in the class, we had age’s ranging from a 20 yr old with several attendees in their late 50’s. Many were prior military and a few had shot some IPSC and IDPA.


Without getting into the specifics of the course here are some observations that I see over and over in firearms courses, especially during FOF training. We had airsofts for the good guys and props for the bad guys including airsofts, clubs, knives and box cutters.


Students habitually walk right by or totally dismiss people with visible weapons in their hands like clubs and knives.


If the student draws down on a attacker and things become static he usually begins to give verbal commands that are common to police such ask get down, cross you feet etc. While giving commands no students retreated to a better position of cover even when it was steps away.


Once students get both hands on their gun they become glued there even if they are being attacked with a club or a knife. Not one student released his weak hand to defend himself. This at best promotes a mutual slaying.


When both hands are glued to the gun the students only move straight back or straight forward.


During the entire day, not one headshot was counted. The majority of rounds struck the hand/arm holding the weapon, and COM.


During force on force no students reported closing one eye or contemplating which eye to shoot with.


Using a t-shirts for a concealment garment is likely to end up in a fouled draw, especially if you need to draws one handed.


You cannot open your door, pop your seatbelt, clear the seatbelt, get out of the car and draw you pistol in one move. At combat speed there is a very high screw up rate doing this drill.


Shooters are good about not getting their gun caught up the seatbelt but usually end up getting the seatbelt caught on reaction side gear like cell phones, magazines and lights. They get about a foot away from the car and then yanked back in by the belt.


Once students encounter and initial threat they sometimes scan left and right but seldom to the rear, once they verbally engage the threat the disregard the rear. I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
Just some thoughts that I hope provoke a discussion.

[Helter]

I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
.

I'd like to appeal that execution. It was unfair, a big guy like you shouldn't be able to move that stealthily!
(I didn't feel the ground shake or anything)

Seriously though, that drill really put some thoughts into my head about fixation and occlusion. The fact of the matter is that not only did I not see the armed person that I walked by, I didn't even realize that the building had ended! As soon as I fixed on the guy standing at my car as the threat, the rest of the world disappeared, only to be brought back very quickly by an airsoft to the head.

Overall, I have to say that this was a great class.

One interesting thing that I realized as I was reviewing what we had done on the drive home. During the "no fire" drills, I had repeated problems with my t-shirt getting caught up with my gun. It was constant, and I failed to cleanly draw my gun at least as many times as I succeeded. During live fire drills, even the ones where we were doing the *exact same things* (ie, exit car, draw weapon, engage threat), I don't think I had a single problem. I may have just blocked them out or not realized that I had a problem drawing, but I certainly didn't have the same level of trouble as earlier in the day.

[LittleRedToyota]

in my experiences with going through simulators and doing FoF both personally and watching other students, i have to say i have myself made and observed many others make many of the same mistakes.

it has led me to the conclusion that it is nearly impossible to be adequately prepared for SHTF without doing FoF and simulator training...and practicing it a lot.

[mercop]

in my experiences with going through simulators and doing FoF both personally and watching other students, i have to say i have myself made and observed many others make many of the same mistakes.

it has led me to the conclusion that it is nearly impossible to be adequately prepared for SHTF without doing FoF and simulator training...and practicing it a lot.

You mean that putting 1000s of rounds into steel and cardboard won't be enough? You mean the Supreme Court was correct when they ruled that police training had to be recent, relevant and realistic? Let's see, going to the range and killing cardboard-
Likely to be recent
Relevant- I have scoured the internet and am still unable to find in instance of inanimate targets attacking anyone.
Realistic-hmm, here is the real problem, do you take your family to the range and grab hold of them when the targets attack?

[thetruepyromaniak]

sounds like a great class

[Robert Desrosiers]

sounds like a great class

It always seems to be my most popular class. There is so much relevancy in regards to application.

Shooting and tearing up a vehicle at the end of the day adds to the fun, though. Must be the little kids in everyone.

[DaveM55]

Now that sounds like a class I'd like to attend.

[Shawn.L]

Now that sounds like a class I'd like to attend.

I'll second that.

I was dumbfounded during Tactics I that going into the carjacking scenerio I failed as badly as I did. I knew going in that I should be scanning, I knew all these things and tactical principles IN THEORY. But I had no practice.

So, when the distraction role player started going I fixed on him. And that was my world. The partner was able to not even sneak, but plain as day spend a few minutes with a blue gun at my head until the distraction had to point him out.

knowing and doing are worlds apart.