Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Bath, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    I am writing this post because my last few visits to the club house has disturbed me. First of all I open carry almost everywhere I go so I walk in open carrying my ruger. The president of the club everytime I walk in walks over and tells me I need to unload it. I ask him why and he says it is in the rules, so I have a little chat about how I as a member find it disturbing that in my club I must forgo my rights under article 1 section 21 of the state constitution especially since this club almost always has petitions to fight anti gun legislation. I ask him rhetoricly if this is hypocrytical and his answer is that it is the rules. Last night the ex president of the club stopped me and told me that even carrying an unloaded firearm is against the rules and can have me expelled for life. My dad asked him why and he says because alcohol is served there and alcohol and guns do not mix. There was a debate between us after where I said people who are not responsible enough to handle firearms and their alcohol safely together deserve neither and maybe it was those types of people that should be ejected instead of the law abiding citizen and active member. He goes into property rights with me which I already know by now. And tells me where the "sheriff" says I can and cannot carry which he is wrong on a few of those places. Anyway the main reason I am writing this is I started telling him about the UFA and how the sherrif was incorrect and his response was " you can read all the laws you want but if the leo says it you have to obey". This being said I am going to the next membership meeting to try to get this rule abolished but I already know I can not fight that kind of ignorance stated above on my own for 2 reasons. 1 I am only 22 and most of the older club members there look as me as just a kid which after 4 years of college and now I am goin in the military I somewhat disagree, and 2 with all the facts I presented him the only argument against me was alcohol and guns do not mix with no numbers or facts to back him. I strongly believe its this thinking which gives the antis ammuntion against us if we as gun owners can not stand together and know that those who carry a firearm legally and responsibly can be trusted to stay under their tolerance limit for alcohol. I am living proof of that. I would appreciate any support I can get if anyone here is members of the club. Numbers speak louder than my words alone.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Northampton
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    I am writing this post because my last few visits to the club house has disturbed me. First of all I open carry almost everywhere I go so I walk in open carrying my ruger. The president of the club everytime I walk in walks over and tells me I need to unload it. I ask him why and he says it is in the rules, so I have a little chat about how I as a member find it disturbing that in my club I must forgo my rights under article 1 section 21 of the state constitution especially since this club almost always has petitions to fight anti gun legislation. I ask him rhetoricly if this is hypocrytical and his answer is that it is the rules. Last night the ex president of the club stopped me and told me that even carrying an unloaded firearm is against the rules and can have me expelled for life. My dad asked him why and he says because alcohol is served there and alcohol and guns do not mix. There was a debate between us after where I said people who are not responsible enough to handle firearms and their alcohol safely together deserve neither and maybe it was those types of people that should be ejected instead of the law abiding citizen and active member. He goes into property rights with me which I already know by now. And tells me where the "sheriff" says I can and cannot carry which he is wrong on a few of those places. Anyway the main reason I am writing this is I started telling him about the UFA and how the sherrif was incorrect and his response was " you can read all the laws you want but if the leo says it you have to obey". This being said I am going to the next membership meeting to try to get this rule abolished but I already know I can not fight that kind of ignorance stated above on my own for 2 reasons. 1 I am only 22 and most of the older club members there look as me as just a kid which after 4 years of college and now I am goin in the military I somewhat disagree, and 2 with all the facts I presented him the only argument against me was alcohol and guns do not mix with no numbers or facts to back him. I strongly believe its this thinking which gives the antis ammuntion against us if we as gun owners can not stand together and know that those who carry a firearm legally and responsibly can be trusted to stay under their tolerance limit for alcohol. I am living proof of that. I would appreciate any support I can get if anyone here is members of the club. Numbers speak louder than my words alone.



    “The president of the club everytime I walk in walks over and tells me I need to unload it. I ask him why and he says it is in the rules,”



    This is a club rule that has been in effect for decades. No loaded guns in the clubhouse. There used to be a sign in the clubhouse stating this rule, but when the clubhouse was recently renovated it some how never made it back up on the wall. Most of club rules are made by the membership. The security, cost of food and drink, pay for the employees, general up keep, and enforcing the club bylaws and other duties are governed by the board of directors. At 8 pm on the second Tuesday of every month the club has a general membership meeting at which time the members are allowed to make motions, and secondary motions to bring issues like this to a vote. The board of directors also have board meetings every week, on Monday nights from 6:30 pm until around 8 pm. Members that wish to address the board are not turned away, but may have to wait a little while until we can finish our weekly duties. I suggest that you bring all supporting documents, “article 1 section 21 of the state constitution”, to either a board meeting, or the general membership meeting when you come. The president (Jim) is correct, it’s the rule, he did not make the rule, he is only making sure it was being followed. The ex president (Tim) you speak of , while having as much right to state his position on the matter as you do, does not set policy for the club.
    Roland T. Rec. Sec. PPR&GC


    I was in the club the night you are speaking of. Friday was a very busy night. I was approached by a few members and asked about the sidearm you were carrying in plain view. I explained to them , that it is a gun club, and as long as it was unloaded,(the magazine was clearly visible attached to your holster) I saw no reason to approach you and your buddy while you were shooting pool and knocking back a few beers.
    I am 1 of 9 board members. Not all of the BODs are up to date on pa state open carry laws (article 1 section 21 of the state constitution) as we should be. I welcome any documentation that would bring the BOD up to date on this issue. I would also state that this is a private club, and as such, the board of directors can make rules that some members may not agree with in matters of security and safety of our employees.

    With that said,
    I can give you my personal opinion on the matter of loaded guns in the clubhouse.
    I personally do not agree with this rule. I feel it was probably a knee jerk reaction to something that happened before you were even born. If you wish to attend one of the meetings stated above, do so in a proper manner, with proper documentation and I will back you 100 percent in your endeavor to abolish this rule. But you are correct, "Numbers speak louder than my words alone."
    Roland

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Delta, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    Sounds like you already have some support. Do your homework and find all the facts and statistics necessary to make your case and talk to some of the members to see what their position is. Rally some support and present the facts and the old timers that don't want to change things just because "that's the way it's always been" won't be able to make a valid arguement against yours. And as stated above, go about things the proper way and with respect and you will make much more progress than spouting off and just making it sound like your opinion on the matter. Use the facts. Good luck.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    DuBois, Pennsylvania
    (Clearfield County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    I was told at one gun club the reason for no loaded guns (aside from the firing line) was because their insurance company required it (I don't know if the rates were lower that way, or if they just wouldn't insure them if they allowed loaded guns outside the firing line). A lot of gun clubs are small and can barely afford to stay opened, but it sounds like this club is a bit more active and the rule has been around long before it would have been dictated by an insurance company. Point is, some clubs may have a similar rule, but not because they're anti-rights, but because they can't afford to not have the rule.

    Good luck getting the rule changed.

  5. #5
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    Northampton
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    Leeam is correct.
    After doing some research on this rule Sunday afternoon, I was able to determine the origin of this rule. To be able to have coverage through our insurance carrier,( or any carrier that I am aware of ) for the ranges, grounds and the clubhouse that holds a valid club liquor license, this rule must stand.
    It was difficult to even find a insurance carrier that would cover the club because we hold a valid club liquor license, and operational firearms ranges on the same property. I suppose if we sold or gave up the liquor lic. or closed all ranges, we might be able to find a carrier that would insure the club and then we could drop the "No loaded guns in the clubhouse" rule. But any changes of this nature would require a change in the club bylaws, and 3 separate votes from all active and life members. In other words 1shot,
    I do not see this happening anytime in the near future. I stated before that I would back you in your endeavor, and I meant it. But after doing the research, and seeing the black and white of our policy, I must rescind my offer.
    I feel that closing the ranges, or giving up the club license is not in the best interest of the association. Being a duly elected board member of the club,
    what is in the best interest of the association is my main concern.
    Roland T.
    PPR&G Rec. Sec.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    You guys know more about this than me so this might be an oversimplified suggestion. But it sounds like it's time to do some insurance shopping. And call other clubs around the state to get suggestions on policies.

  7. #7
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    Location
    Bath, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    Thank you for your responses. After taking that into consideration I believe some more research is required on my part before I go to a board meeting. The rule makes much more sense now in that perspective, shame how an insurance company can dictate the rights of free men and women like they can. Maybe directing efforts more towards changing that end would be a start.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    DuBois, Pennsylvania
    (Clearfield County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1shot1kill View Post
    The rule makes much more sense now in that perspective, shame how an insurance company can dictate the rights of free men and women like they can.
    They can't. They have the right to limit their insurance any way they please and you (and anyone) have the right to pick a different insurance company, or have none at all.

    A lot of people call rights violations on private matters in which no rights violations occurs. Private businesses can't violate your rights, only the government can. To be clear, I'd love for an insurance company to allow loaded firearms outside of a shooting range. Seems kind of silly considering they insure businesses that allow loaded firearms on premises anyway.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Northampton
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    1shot,
    I was made aware tonight that the president Jim,
    asked you to come to mondays board meeting.
    I am not sure why he asked this of you, as I do not see the open carry issue being completey decided by the board members alone. Since you have not broken any club rules, and the issue will not likely be decided on monday night, I would ask that you call the club asap, 610-837-0310, and let them know that you and your friend will not be able to make the meeting. I would state that if the board needs to contact you in the future about the open carry issue, that they may do it in writing. This way you will have a written document stating what rules, if any, were broken.
    In other words, if you havent broken a rule, why do you need to be there? Also, it places the burden of proof on them.
    I hope you get this message in time before monday night. Please contact me at roland45@enter.net
    Roland
    Last edited by Roland45; September 13th, 2009 at 03:37 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Scranton, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
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    Default Re: Anyone here belong to Point Phillips Rod and Gun Club?

    I've looked into joining a club and found they had the same rule. I dont know that they had a alcohol license but I talked to a few of the guys and know that, paying member or not, that's a rule that is very unlikely to change.

    I use the state game lands. I'd rather deal with the silly mag limits than be forced to disarm, and pay to do it.
    Still looking for land where I can freely cut loose. Gun clubs are not worth it IMO.
    Best of luck. Do your research and think your side through.
    Millions for defense, Not one cent for tribute!

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