UT Instructor Newsletter

[mrjam2jab]

Since the newsletter is available on the web....i can post a thread with a link to it, yes?

I just read it and have a question about what i saw there...

[baker]

yes please do im curious what question you may have.

[mrjam2jab]

ok....65 views and nobody said i couldnt....

in the July 2009 newsletter i found this:

REMINDER
Only those instructors who are
certified with BCI can teach or
assist with teaching the Utah
concealed firearm permit classes.
Exception: If you choose to
incorporate range time. For
safety reasons, you can use other
trained personnel to act as range
safety officers.

Bold mine...


That makes it sound like live fire is optional for the UT course....? It was my understanding that it was required by UT BCI...

[bdevil73]

Live fire is optional. We didn't have it in the class I took.

[JCWohlschlag]

The lack of live fire requirement is the reason Nevada recently dropped Utah from the list of states it will reciprocally honor.

[Nevada Sheriffs’ and Chiefs’ Association — Nevada Set to Recognize Other States’ Carry Concealed Weapon Permits Effective July 1, 2009: “Two states will be removed from the list of recognized states. They are Utah and Florida. It was determined that these states no longer met the two step test required by Nevada law. Utah’s permit process does not require live fire training that Nevada law requires and Florida changed its permit renewal time from five years to seven years before renewal. These issues were substantially different from Nevada’s law.”]

[BCI Instructor]

A little info on live fire and some general comments that may offer some perspective ...

I cover 5 states formally for Utah, all or part of another 5 + D.C. as well.
I'm the only Instructor listed performing multiple state course delivery.

Utah Instructors must:

-- follow the Utah MTC (Minimum Training Curriculum) to the letter
- OR -
-- submit an alternate training outline for approval that incorporates ALL of the above plus supplemental classroom material or range activities

It is a Felony under Utah statutes for an Instructor to deviate from the MTC.

There are a great many excellent Utah Instructors.
Some include live fire, some do not.

Additionally, the Utah MTC _must_ be taught in it's entirety, solo, before any "combo course" may be taught. For example, some Instructors would teach a course combining elements of Utah's MTC and NRA Training - and give you a certificate for both at the end of the class. Per Utah this is illegal, even if the courses have a lot of shared info (safety rules, range rules, etc ...). A Utah & NRA Instructor, M.W., did this for a brief time. 85+ of his students had their Utah permits revoked and he is no longer an Instructor for the Utah program.

Even if your Instructor included live fire and offered documentation for the live fire portion or a certificate indicating live fire, etc ... it is not "recognized" since it is not part of the MTC as mandated by statute.

Many Instructors who include live fire do so ethically as a value-added supplemental course component.
(example: js1050 / Jason S., an outstanding Utah Instructor who commonly covers the eastern side of PA).

Many Instructors choose not to include live fire; examples are myself (my reasons are outlined below), also
TonyF/The Fire Institute when they offered the Utah course.

Some Instructors who include live fire do so for but a single purpose:
to increase the course fee that they may charge.
(I met folks during Instructor Recertification who charge $175 - $350+ for the Utah course + live fire)

I choose not to include live fire.
My reasons:

-- I'd rather not take an hour or so out of my 8 hour course delivery only to see little more than that you have the most basic mechanics and can hit paper at 7 - 25 yards. Congratulations. If ever you are attacked by a paper target under flourescent lighting or at a range in broad daylight, you're ready
(Moral: get thee some quality training under realistic guidelines that includes low light / no light scenarios)

-- I'd rather a novice or intermediate skill level person attend a dedicated live fire course, such as NRA's Basic Pistol or Personal Protection courses, or poster TonyF/The Fire Institute's outstanding "One Day Handgun Clinic" or even more advanced courses. (As for me, I teach NRA First Steps Pistol and Basic Pistol, infrequently: I spend 90%+ of my time delivering the Utah course)

-- I do thoroughly cover weapons manipulation; bring 6 - 12 demo handguns; use safe dummy ammo for clearance / stoppage / jam drills; teach those drills from both a range perspective _and_ what to do if you have a jam during a self defense incident; cover operational differences and weapons safety checks, etc ...

-- I stress that everyone attending should regularly participate in some form of additional training and organized shoots to hone their skills.

Lastly, no live fire means I can offer the course most anywhere to widely varying groups.
I want the Utah course to be within reach of most anyone, whether the class is held at my studio, their gun club, their business or in their livingroom or garage.

In the last 2 months alone, I've delivered the Utah course to: Marines at Quantico, members of the National Guard, a group of Constables wishing to supplement their LEOSA coverage, multiple family members of LEO's whose spouse or adult children lack the LEOSA coverage they enjoy, non-sworn LE personnel such as dispatchers / FF / EMT's, members of several gun clubs, D.C. area Embassy / Personal Protection Personnel, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, PAFOA users and paid members and dozens of private citizens.

For many, I'm pleased to have been among those that helped them pursue personal responsibility for their own protection and defense. I've instructed enough PAFOA members that I'd have been "called out" on the forums if anyone felt my delivery of the course was anything less than thorough and professional.

apologies for the long post ... hope the info / insight helps ...

stay safe

[mrjam2jab]

A little info on live fire and some general comments that may offer some perspective ...

A lot of good info in that post. I read the newsletter and read the MTC...makes me want that course even more...

Jason's current schedule has him all the way out by Pittsburgh next month...Jeff in Parkesburg, NJ has one this Saturday but i cant make that one...and nothing scheduled after that...so waiting to see which one schedules one i can make first...

I like the idea of including the live fire...to be honest, i dont get to range as often as i should....cant say i remember the last trip... I'm still looking for a Basic Pistol that i can get to...still waiting to hear back from a local range and member here...as well any any other "certifiable" courses...told the Mrs. i want to start training as i've never had any formal training.

I have also seen some who offer the course for $200+ for the UT course and others who charge that for the NRA Basic course ...outrageous...how does a "normal" person afford those rates???

[fingers80002]

A lot of good info in that post. I read the newsletter and read the MTC...makes me want that course even more...

Jason's current schedule has him all the way out by Pittsburgh next month...Jeff in Parkesburg, NJ has one this Saturday but i cant make that one...and nothing scheduled after that...so waiting to see which one schedules one i can make first...

I like the idea of including the live fire...to be honest, i dont get to range as often as i should....cant say i remember the last trip... I'm still looking for a Basic Pistol that i can get to...still waiting to hear back from a local range and member here...as well any any other "certifiable" courses...told the Mrs. i want to start training as i've never had any formal training.

I have also seen some who offer the course for $200+ for the UT course and others who charge that for the NRA Basic course ...outrageous...how does a "normal" person afford those rates???

Jason is having a class in Adams Co. Sept. 20.

[mrjam2jab]

Jason is having a class in Adams Co. Sept. 20.

His site says Sept 19 Indiana, PA. Where on the 20th?

[BCI Instructor]

His site says Sept 19 Indiana, PA. Where on the 20th?

I believe Jason will be at the Adams County Sport Handgunners Association

http://www.acsha.com/

I've taught at ACSHA previously as well.
Nice facility and some top notch folks running it;
they also offer NRA courses that are very organized and creative
- and reasonably priced.