Is an attorney needed for NFA? What is a NFA trust document?

[FloridaState]

I read that some people use attorneys for NFA transfer trusts. Was not sure what that is. What can I exspect to pay for the transfer, paper work and dealer fees in PA? Do I need an attorney to review my paperwork?

[GUNGUY45]

If you are going to puchase as an individual, you don't need a lawyer.
If you want to set up a Trust to purchase NFA firearms through(no CLEO sign off, or fingerprints needed), then some people use a lawyer to set it up.
There are some who use Quicken willmaker to make up an NFA trust.
Search this forum to get the pros, and cons.
Most shops charge $50.00-$100.00 for an NFA transfer, in my experience(2 transfers...so far)

[jtl1952]

Some people establish a trust to own NFA items. The allows individual, corporation (corp or LLC) or a trust for ownership. If you use a trust, the trust legally owns the item, not you.
Advantages with a trust or corp are that no chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) sign-off is needed, no photo needed, no fingerprint cards needed with the application. Also, more than one person (e.g., corp officer who meets requirements like age & no felonys) can possess the item.
Transfer fee for a trust/corp is $200 (or $5 for AOW) & dealer fees can range up to $100. These are for each NFA item. Also, filing the paperwork and getting approval must be done for each NFA item. These are no different than if you buy as an individual.

[bleaman225]

Use the search engine on this site.
Type in "NFA Trust".
You will find many discussions on the subject.

[SigForLife]

Our office, Prince Law Offices, P.C., does NFA Trusts because of the complexities in the intersection between PA's trust law and the NFA. As many have already said, you will find all the information that you need by doing a search. However, you can find all the articles that I have written on Gun (NFA) Trusts, here: http://blog.princelaw.com/gun-trusts-blog. The article that most people find the most helpful is the Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions article: http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/1/12/...sked-questions

[marinakorp]

I read that some people use attorneys for NFA transfer trusts. Was not sure what that is. What can I exspect to pay for the transfer, paper work and dealer fees in PA? Do I need an attorney to review my paperwork?

Short answer - NO

Longer answer - Might not be a bad way to ensure you don't spend a few years in a cell with bubba - hire a lawyer.

Some counties will sign off for indivuiduals to own NFA weapons. In this case... no lawyer is needed, make an appt with the Sr law enforcement officer... fill out paper work, pay 200...wait... etc.

Other counties (Montgomery being one of them) will not sign off on "civilians" owning an NFA weapon... so starting a Trust or a LLC is another way to accomplish this task. In this case... I would recommend having a lawyer draft the trust / LLC ... cheap insurance to hedge against a few years with bubba.

Some have used quicken (or others) software to create a LLc or a Trust... they may not be specific enough to cover your ARSE in the long run...

[GunLawyer001]

It's illegal for you to possess any NFA firearm.

Unless....

It's not illegal, and you won't go to jail, if ATF issued an approved Form 1 or 4 in your name, because you personally are the transferee.

Or, if you are in one of the eligible fiduciary relationships with a "legal person" that is the transferee, you won't go to jail, IF all the legalities are complied with. A legal person is a corporation, LLC, or a trust. Corps and LLC's are established by the Commonwealth, and ATF or the cop who has you in handcuffs can verify the existence of a corp or LLC very easily, online, or by phone during office hours.

A trust exists only on paperwork in your hands. There were dubious rumors of ATF seeking to seize NFA firearms transferred into a defective trust, but nobody impartial was able to verify this, and the alleged circumstances & timing were frankly implausible. However, the truth remains that Quicken trusts were never intended to be used for NFA holding entities. Since your legal right to possess an NFA firearm is the only thing standing between you and federal prison and/or forfeiture, it would pay you to get it right.

I advise everyone to get a transfer into their own name, if at all possible. You don't need a lawyer for that, if they sign. The hurdle is always getting the signature from their Chief Law Enforcement Officer, the CLEO. There are MULTIPLE officials who can sign this, exhaust them all before hiring a lawyer to create a legal person, because YOU DON'T OWN THE FIREARM if you choose that route; you just own the entity that owns the firearm, it's one more link that can go wrong.

If you can't get the signature, then I recommend a corp or LLC, usually the LLC. Very simple to run if a lawyer sets it up right, not complicated at all. A D.I.Y. LLC will only be as good as its ability to withstand a legal challenge, which may never happen, or it may happen 10 years down the road after you've put $20,000 worth of toys into it and the local cops are trying to crucify you; then it will be too late to do it right.

A corp is harder to operate than an LLC, there are some counterintuitive "meeting" and record requirements that you have to obey, which an LLC doesn't have.

If you have serious inheritance issues and you want to combine your NFA ownership with your Will and Will-bypass estate planning scheme, then you might go with a trust. Be advised that there's a whole lot of Internet mythology about trusts, and a number of relatively new lawyers willing to sell you a trust. Personally, I can draft anything, but after being involved in the NFA hobby for over 20 years, and gun law for 15, I choose not to draft NFA trusts for my clients. I just don't think they're as safe as (1) personal ownership, or (2) LLC's & corps. Do a lot of reading before betting your future on something just because it's trendy. Trusts have been around for hundreds of years, and have been successfully used to protect assets and pass them on to younger generations (they can also fail if challenged in court), but NFA trusts are really just a phenomenon of the last few years, and ATF is struggling to deal with them.

Even with corps and LLC's, there's a lot of room to screw up. Internet scribes have bragged about how they share their registered NFA toys with all their buddies, who they list as "officers" of their corp. Well, that's illegal. Bona-fide officers and employees can possess the company firearms if the groundwork is laid properly, but the key there is "bona fide". When you smirk and tell the ATF agent that your buddy Jimmy had the company machinegun at the range because he's "head of corporate security", that agent will ask about Jimmy's salary, his duties, where his office is, where the tax withholding payments are...somewhere around that point, you and Jimmy will be wearing cuffs for unlawful transfer and unlawful possession of an NFA firearm.

This isn't just some paperwork issue, this is the only thing standing between you and criminal felonies. "Lawful possession" requires that everything was drafted properly and run properly, mistakes turn it into "unlawful possession". Do it right.

[GunLawyer001]

I recommend an LLC for people who can't get a CLEO signature. A trust is intended for estate inheritance issues, which is not really what most people are looking for when they want to buy that toy. For a lot of people, it's like using a power drill when you really need a pencil. There's more to screw up with a trust, even if it was set up properly.

Before going with any law firm, ask them how long they have been in practice, and how much experience they have with NFA issues, and whether they are admitted to the Pennsylvania bar before they recommend what's best for your particular situation; if you're in Pennsylvania (and I can't tell, your handle is "FloridaState" which is the home of the new practice that's pushing trusts all around the USA, but your info shows PA), then your trusts and corporations and LLC's are all Pennsylvania entities, governed by Pennsylvania law. A law degree doesn't make anyone an instant expert in firearms law, particularly the very specialized area of NFA firearms; so you want someone with enough years of experience, admitted to practice in PA, with some street cred in the firearms law area. And of course someone who doesn't use shills to push their work. Basically, someone you can trust.

[SigForLife]

There's more to screw up with a trust, even if it was set up properly.

I disagree with that comment. Specifically, if the trust was properly set up as a firearms trust, not a generic trust, how is there more to screw up then with a corporation? Any fiduciary duty issues can be handled in the trust document itself and should be in a firearms trust where the settlor wants to allow the trustees to use the trust assets. Similarly, in the Corp you have to deal with who can possess/use the firearms. Also, as I shared with you before, it is the position of some at the ATF (NFA Section Chief, Rob Howard) that ONLY those officers that are listed with the state may possess and that an employee may NOT possess, whether bona fide or not. While PA's Business Corporation Law, although not speaking to NFA directly, would say that a bona fide employee could possess, I would not want to get into pissing contest with the ATF between State and Federal law.

[GunLawyer001]

I disagree with that comment. Specifically, if the trust was properly set up as a firearms trust, not a generic trust, how is there more to screw up then with a corporation? Any fiduciary duty issues can be handled in the trust document itself and should be in a firearms trust where the settlor wants to allow the trustees to use the trust assets. Similarly, in the Corp you have to deal with who can possess/use the firearms. Also, as I shared with you before, it is the position of some at the ATF (NFA Section Chief, Rob Howard) that ONLY those officers that are listed with the state may possess and that an employee may NOT possess, whether bona fide or not. While PA's Business Corporation Law, although not speaking to NFA directly, would say that a bona fide employee could possess, I would not want to get into pissing contest with the ATF between State and Federal law.

Since I know that you are in fact a Pennsylvania lawyer, having attended and graduated from an accredited Pennsylvania law school, and you reside in PA, and I believe that you've recently sat for the PA Bar, so your opinion carries rather more weight for PA residents than the opinions of anyone not admitted to PA practice or not a lawyer at all.

Still, you're mistaken about ATF and corporate bona-fide employees. Corps have owned NFA firearms for decades, for the use of bona fide security personnel whose duties reasonably require the use of machineguns. I wouldn't push that too far, and I'm on record as saying that claiming your brother in law is your "Chief Security Officer" for you corporation that does no business and earns no income is not a legitimate strategy. But any corporate officer should be fine, and any ACTUAL employee who handles security or safeguards corporate assets should also be fine. If your corp's gardener is running around with your SBR, that would be a problem.

That being said, I prefer LLC's, because any Member is potentially eligible to possess the company NFA firearms. There are no fiduciary duties to anyone, there's no document that must be followed, you don't have to be in an income-producing business with security duties. LLC Members are the owners of the company, so they can possess LLC assets if the Operating Agreement is done right. For a non-lawyer, I see fewer potential problems in operating an LLC and using NFA toys for the benefit of the Members.

Face it, trusts exist as asset planning tools. If someone wants to live his life for the benefit of his heirs, then sure, pop those NFA firearms and your car and your house and pour over your estate residue into a trust. But a trust is not the simple answer to "I want to own stuff, but not directly". It's the answer to "how can I become merely the temporary user of stuff that I pay for?"