Rifle without barrel purchase via a proxy in PA without going through FFL?

[mythaeus]

I have an odd one for you guys...

I found someone who is selling a complete Uzi rifle without the barrel. The seller/owner is elsewhere and will have a "proxy" do the FTF transaction in PA. I have 2 questions:

1. A rifle without the barrel is still a rifle or is it considered to be a receiver so I should be OK buying it as if I'm buying an AR rifle lower + upper receiver + bolt correct?

2. Does the actual owner have to be in the presence of the sale? I believe that the owner is a PA resident (confirming that right now). If the owner is NOT a state resident, but the rifle is located in PA at the proxy's house, am I breaking any transfer laws?

Thanks.
Al

[GunLawyer001]

How did this get into PA?

Was the barrel removed, or was it never completely assembled?

A virgin receiver isn't a rifle or a pistol, but a rifle that's had the barrel removed is still a rifle for NFA purposes, meaning that it would be a felony to build it into a pistol without an approved Form 1. Especially since it sounds like it has a buttstock.

For transfer purposes, without a barrel it has no barrel length, so there's an argument that it's not exempt from the "transfer via FFL" requirement (which applies to all guns except rifles and shotguns). At least, that seems to be the way the PSP are leaning these days.

The rules are in flux right now. I'd think about using an FFL for the transfer to you.

[PA Rifleman]

I have an odd one for you guys...

I found someone who is selling a complete Uzi rifle without the barrel. The seller/owner is elsewhere and will have a "proxy" do the FTF transaction in PA. I have 2 questions:

1. A rifle without the barrel is still a rifle or is it considered to be a receiver so I should be OK buying it as if I'm buying an AR rifle lower + upper receiver + bolt correct?

2. Does the actual owner have to be in the presence of the sale? I believe that the owner is a PA resident (confirming that right now). If the owner is NOT a state resident, but the rifle is located in PA at the proxy's house, am I breaking any transfer laws?

Thanks.
Al

This raises a few concerns and questions:

1. The receiver is the key item. The barrel detail should be irrelevant, since the controlled item is the receiver. If the seller is a PA resident, you should be good to go.

2. Is this a face-to-face (non-dealer) transaction, or are you purchasing this through an FFL? This is important, since the Uzi could be one of three types of firearm: rifle (16" barrel), pistol or NFA class weapon. This detail is very important. The existence of the "proxy" (I hope isn't codeword for fence, as in selling stolen property) is concerning to me, I would ask for some proof of ownership to forestall a future receiving stolen property charge later.

Is the gun already in PA?

How about a few more details?

[PA Rifleman]

...

For transfer purposes, without a barrel it has no barrel length, so there's an argument that it's not exempt from the "transfer via FFL" requirement (which applies to all guns except rifles and shotguns)....
The rules are in flux right now. I'd think about using an FFL for the transfer to you.

Good point, GL.

Correct, for without a barrel, the overall length can't be established which would determine whether it's a "firearm" or not in the Pennsylvania context*.

*overall length under 26 inches = "firearm", according to the Commonwealth of PA.

[mak47]

Interesting question, I can't wait to hear the answer.

You could be walking a fine line with the UZI rifle. Because it's got a receiver, it's considered a firearm. Because it has a stock, it's considered a rifle. But because it has no barrel it's impossible to determine if it is in fact a "long-gun". In theory, the end user could use an UZI Pistol barrel and make it an SBR or could remove the stock and make it a pistol.

Do you have a barrel for it already? If so, maybe the best route is to install the barrel when you make the transaction thus eliminating any potential gray area. Perhaps even simply keeping the barrel with it while in transit and at the place of transfer would at least prove your intent to make it a complete "long-gun", in the event any questions are asked. (or if the proxy is actually an undercover BATFE agent which is why I always shy away from these kinds of deals)

If the owner is a PA resident, then there is no issue with a private transfer otherwise because he essentially "gave" the rifle to his proxy who is now basically the owner. If he is a PA resident, then it's perfectly acceptable for you to do a private transfer with him.

If the original owner is not a PA resident then it would get really weird. How did the gun get here in the first place? Was it transferred properly etc.?

Hopefully he's a resident, then all's well.

[mythaeus]

Thank you all very much for your thoughts on this. I am trying to establish a few facts with the seller and waiting for a response:

1. Seller's residence
2. Proxy's relationship to the seller
3. Proof of ownership

The seller said that the "rifle" was purchased without the barrel and a barrel from another Uzi has been used with it, but won't be selling it with a barrel. I have an Uzi and can definitely bring it along.

All in all though, unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I'm taking up on GL advice and pay and extra $30 for FFL transfer. Will keep you posted on the details, but I thought it was an interesting case nevertheless. Thanks again.

Al
ETA: I don't know how the gun without barrel was purchased. It is currently in PA. It is not registered as as SBR according to the seller.

[mak47]

If there is any funny business going on, when you mention going through an FFL for a "proper" transfer, the seller(s) will find a reason to back out.

Personally, I can't see the why they would use a barrel from another uzi to fire this "rifle" unless the other uzi was somehow inoperable. If that's the case, why aren't they selling this one with the barrel? I don't think that any rifle barrel is so simple to interchange that anyone would just take one and swap it to another just for kicks.

Does going through an FFL really offer you any protection? The serial numbers aren't run through the system during a transfer, only your info for a background check.

I'd be concerned that after the transfer is done and all paperwork is shipped off to the places that it "isn't examined, analyzed or stored" that the BATF or PSP would come knocking on your door looking for this "rifle". If it was stolen, or perhaps the previous owner was in trouble with it for having an unregistered SBR or something of that nature, the PSP or the Feds could want to seize it. In that case, your out however much money you spent on it.

Personally, I'd avoid this one. The BATF was given a lot of money to spend between the stimulus and omnibus bills and they really don't have anything better to do than pick over "questionable" transactions like these.

[GunLawyer001]

If I had to guess, 2 possibilities are:

(a) it was a Norinco import and someone botched the conversion from welded barrel and thumbhole stock, or

(b) someone chopped the legal 16" barrel, then priced carbine barrels and didn't want to spend the $125 to replace it.

[GunLawyer001]

. . .
Does going through an FFL really offer you any protection? The serial numbers aren't run through the system during a transfer, only your info for a background check.
. . .

From the UFA:

(d) Defense.--Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.

[justashooter]

I don't think that any rifle barrel is so simple to interchange that anyone would just take one and swap it to another just for kicks.

it takes about a minute to change an uzi barrel.