Allegheny County homosexual special rights Ordinance 4201-08

[Siobhra]

The 'special' rights for Christians that I mentioned are the laws that say you can not discriminate against people for their religion. I can't fire you if I find out your a Christian yet I can if I find out your Gay. And when I was still a Christian it was never held against me but I have been fired for being Gay.

Why can't I refuse to hire Christian's if I owned a business? Why can't I say that I run a business that attracts a lot of children and I can't risk exposing them to the Christian Lifestyle? I know it implies that there is something really wrong with Christians but could I be given a pass on it if I say something like "I have lots of Christian friends but I do not except their lifestyle"? Or "Love the Christian but hate the lifestyle"? Sounds like Christians are real sick when I say it that way but if it is how I feel why not say it?

The thing is if the law lets me some will take it as the right thing to do. That it is OK to attack Christians. The laws against discrimination and the Gay Rights Ordinance are to send a message that it is wrong. A message the Good Christian Ministers have been (or should have been) preaching all along.

[adymond]

The 'special' rights for Christians that I mentioned are the laws that say you can not discriminate against people for their religion. I can't fire you if I find out your a Christian yet I can if I find out your Gay. And when I was still a Christian it was never held against me but I have been fired for being Gay.

Why can't I refuse to hire Christian's if I owned a business? Why can't I say that I run a business that attracts a lot of children and I can't risk exposing them to the Christian Lifestyle? I know it implies that there is something really wrong with Christians but could I be given a pass on it if I say something like "I have lots of Christian friends but I do not except their lifestyle"? Or "Love the Christian but hate the lifestyle"? Sounds like Christians are real sick when I say it that way but if it is how I feel why not say it?

The thing is if the law lets me some will take it as the right thing to do. That it is OK to attack Christians. The laws against discrimination and the Gay Rights Ordinance are to send a message that it is wrong. A message the Good Christian Ministers have been (or should have been) preaching all along.

Why are you singling out Christians? The discrimination laws protect Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Wiccans, etc. They also protect women, various minority races, as well as members of certain age groups and health statuses.

You are trying to twist the concept around that because your lifestyle may not be acceptable to some that somehow they are discriminating against you. If you are fired because of your lifestyle that's wrong. Whether your lifestyle is being attracted to members of the same sex, practicing a certain religion, your living arrangements, etc.

By having laws that offer additional protections to ANY class or group of citizens elevates them above others. Instead let's enforce the anti-discrimination laws in place and maybe open them up a bit. As it is I can't sue for discrimination if the NAACP doesn't hire me because I am a 30 year old straight white man.

[PennsyPlinker]

The 'special' rights for Christians that I mentioned are the laws that say you can not discriminate against people for their religion. I can't fire you if I find out your a Christian yet I can if I find out your Gay. And when I was still a Christian it was never held against me but I have been fired for being Gay.

Any law that is set up to protect people from discrimination due to religious preference is not Christian specific. It covers any religion you care to name, including Wiccans. That it does not work out according to the intent of the legislators is a tribute to the fallibility of man. When it comes down to it, a person in Pa. can be denied employment for just about any reason. I worked for a large corporation that is now out of business - Circuit City. I was a manager with them, and we were ordered to discriminate on all sorts of levels for what I considered the wrong reasons. I got in trouble all the time for not walking in lockstep, and have been on my own for the last 16 years because I don't fit in.

Why can't I refuse to hire Christian's if I owned a business? Why can't I say that I run a business that attracts a lot of children and I can't risk exposing them to the Christian Lifestyle? I know it implies that there is something really wrong with Christians but could I be given a pass on it if I say something like "I have lots of Christian friends but I do not except their lifestyle"? Or "Love the Christian but hate the lifestyle"? Sounds like Christians are real sick when I say it that way but if it is how I feel why not say it?

The short version is, you can. You can turn anyone down for anything. You have to be careful how you do it, but at the end of the day, you can discriminate (i.e. choose) on any level you want. We still have freedom of association, and that is how it should be. You should be able to staff your business with like minded people, just as I should be able to. And you can, if you do it right. That is not to say I would not hire someone who is gay, or Hindu, or whatever. I would hire the person who is best for the job and who will do that job. In my manager job, I was disliked by some under me because I had a black guy as my second in charge, a woman as my inventory control clerk, and an Arab as my delivery driver. Some of the other people thought I was being too diverse. That didn't enter into it. What entered into it was how well people did their jobs.

But I suspect that if you were to run a business selling various herbs and potions and other things associated with Wicca, you wouldn't have too many Christians applying anyway, unless they were bent on making trouble for you. And then, they deserve to be fired. By the same token, if I ran a business where people were in close contact with children, I would put them all under some very close scrutiny, not just for the sake of observing the law, but to keep the kids from harm. Our church requires every person who works with the kids to undergo a criminal background check. It is not foolproof, but it is one way to make sure the wrong people don't show up and get in amongst the sheep.

The thing is if the law lets me some will take it as the right thing to do. That it is OK to attack Christians. The laws against discrimination and the Gay Rights Ordinance are to send a message that it is wrong. A message the Good Christian Ministers have been (or should have been) preaching all along.

If someone attacks me, I don't care if it was because I was a Christian, a Republican, a white guy, overweight, or whatever. All I care about is that they attacked me, and they deserve to be punished for it. In the end, it is not the motivation that counts but the behavior. Who cares about why a person was attacked? It doesn't matter. The wounds are not any different, the pain and suffering is still the same. Regardless of the motivation, it is still against the law of the land to attack people. The problem comes back to our warped justice system, where certain classes of people get a wink and a nod and a get out of jail free card. That is where the problem lies, not in the general population. If a man is murdered, or a woman raped, why does it really matter why the perpetrator hated them? It only matters that he did, and that he broke a universal law against hurting a fellow human being.

[Siobhra]

PennsyPlinker I agree with everything you said. I mentioned Christians because that was the religion the topic mentioned. Yes the other religions have special rights also. The point I was trying to make was any law to protect against discrimination is a special law. We could say the this new ordinance is not a 'rights' law because it is not Gay specific. It covers Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Transsexuals and streights that apear to fall into one of those groups.

When the first Civil Rights law was passed in the late 60's I wondered if we might be opening a can of worms. Once you single out that it is wrong to discriminate against one group you imply that it is OK to discriminate against the rest because they are not mentioned.

Hence you now have white males at the bottom of the 'rights' list with white females next.

I don't know what should have been done back then but it caused a problem today. And this country seems to love hating one group or another. Some how or some way we "need" to have a group under us.

We now have the same mindset here where we have to fight for gun rights. Only our rights are spelled out and are stomped on. Rather than punish the bad they outlaw the good. (Maybe we should push for hate crime protection when someone puts up a no-guns sign?)

[son of the revolution]

And this country seems to love hating one group or another.

This is done INTENTIONALLY , by the " leadership " and the media that must keep the populance antagonizing and divided against each other in order to maintain their smoke and mirrors routine . If this Country ever truly came together as one ( ala post 9-11 ) united for a return to the ideals of the Founders , it would be an unstoppable force that would wreak havoc . Its stunning and sad that blacks buy into the garbage of welfare and gun control , two issues that are racist at their core . Gun Control started in the Southern States in the Reconstruction Period after the Civil War in order to keep the now free former slaves from being a threat to their former captors .

Welfare is nothing more then another form of slavery , albeit an economic one . Welfare and affirmative action says to people " Your not good enough to make it on your own merits ". Welfare is a way to buy votes , after all , who would " bite the hand that feeds them ?" Now , clearly people of all colors and creeds fall into hard times , very often through no "choice " of their own and should be giving a helping hand to make it through the rough patch and progress upward . But thats not what happens . Welfare encourages people to NOT strive for success . Welfare should be a personal insult to anyone of character . There was a time not long ago when people refused to accept " handouts " , even in desperation , because it was an insult to their pride . Now its viewed as an entitlement , and pride is meaningless .

[justashooter]

I've enjoyed this site, and I'm going to go out on a limb and "out" myself, because as a woman, a jew, and a lesbian...

I call BS untuil we see the pix. The pix must convince us that you are a woman, lesbian, and jewish. Can be mailed directly to my e-mail address. No need to actually send the pix if you are not hot. In that case, we'll just take your word for it.

[justashooter]

To quote the Bible. (I think) "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." So if you discriminate against Gays or Trannies then YOU are giving them the right to discriminate against you. If you don't want to hire Christians then higher a Gay for the HR department. That way you can put up a sign saying "Help Wanted, Christians need not apply". I think the company could then say "The Christians believe it is right".

don't go quoting scripture unless you are willing to quote it all, sugar. the bible clearly condemns homosexuality throughout the old and new testament.

[autotech6506]

I'm quoting this one just because I need one to quote. Christians don't have special rights. We are quickly becoming the last legitimate target for bigotry in this country. Everyone else is getting protected status, if not through the law, then through the politically correct system that is rampant now. I think you need to read back through some of your recent posts and look at the hypocrisy in them. On the one hand you are decrying bigotry, but on the other you are laying all bigotry at the feet of all Christians. At least, that is what your posts seem to indicate. Why don't you do some research on how Muslims treat homosexuals before you rant about Christians?

I am right out here in front of God and everyone with my faith in a number of posts, and I have never advocated bigotry against homosexuals. I don't in my private life either. That is not to say I approve of the lifestyle, because I don't. I don't approve of people living together unmarried either, but that is their business. In general I don't go around telling people how I think they should live, period. Lots of people on this board have spent considerable time with me to know that to be true. But that does not preclude having my own beliefs about how it ought to be.



I came out from under my rock just for you. I have been on a self imposed ban for the past couple of weeks because of high handed sanctimony from some on this board. I have better things to do with my time than respond to nameless faceless people here who have nothing better to do than parse statements in such a way as to be inaccurate and then demand I defend what they wanted me to have meant instead of what I really mean.

But if your statement here is meant to tar us all with the same wide brush, then you are just as bigoted as those you decry. Your words are an example of what I wrote to Siobhra above. Disagreeing with a lifestyle and working actively against it are two completely different things. I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle. I tolerate it though, because they have the same rights I do to make their decision. Tolerance does not mean enthusiastic support or acceptance either. I let it alone. I actually have a number of friends who are homosexual, just as I have friends who live together unmarried. They know that while I do not necessarily approve, I still accept them and respect them as people. I have quite a few Christian friends who think and act the same way I do. It is, in fact, the closest practice to what the Bible says. A lot of people can't seem to separate that, and would rather attack a group with the same bigotry they say they hate. The word for that is hypocrisy.

Carnes, I think exactly like you do on a bunch of things, including the privacy issues in the restroom. I wold be happy if they made stalls big enough to get in and out without having to stand on the toilet to operate the door. But then, stalls are designed by engineers living in cubes who have no familiarity with the various sizes and shapes of the human body.

I couldn't have said it any better. I am also a strong christian straight white male. I've had friends that were gay. I've worked with people who were gay. I didn't approve of their lifestyle but I didn't go out of my way to let them know it. If the issue came up I always let them know my feelings in the most loving manner I could as I am called to do with faith. Things never got awkward and I never had a problem with them and they never had a problem with me, bu they knew how I felt and thats what is important to me.

[adymond]

I call BS

don't go quoting scripture

These posts really belong more in threads in the Loungs IMO. I really don't see how they add much to the thread or discussion aside from being offensive and inflamitory.

[ChamberedRound]

I call BS untuil we see the pix. The pix must convince us that you are a woman, lesbian, and jewish. Can be mailed directly to my e-mail address. No need to actually send the pix if you are not hot. In that case, we'll just take your word for it.

Countering a well-thought out argument by someone in this way is IMHO both condescending and distasteful. Warning issued.