Wrote a letter to all of my local police chiefs

[BimmerJon]

With the summer heat and need to wear less clothing, I wanted to reach out to my local police chief as well as neighboring communities.
My intention was to verify that the police officers were aware of the correct statutes and was curious to their stance and possible reaction to an OC'er encounter.
The response didn't sit well with me as I felt one Chief worded his reply like I would be a walking criminal and automatically guilty of RAS just for OC'ing.

NOTE: I am fully aware that this Chief and/or members of his legal team/officers may come across this thread. I am OK with that. Since in his reply email, he CC'ed the entire police force, his lawyers, some water company, a financial company, etc etc etc...lol

I am not looking for you guys to help me with an attack reply. I just want to respond and get my point across that I am a law abiding citizen with rights and I am in NO WAY "embarrassed" for wanted to protect myself and my family.


Names omitted out of respect, but may be added later on. thanks
Words in RED...just don't sit right with me


Chief ****,


Good evening. I am contacting you as an inquiry on the ******* Police force's level of awareness on our state's Firearms laws/updates to MPOETC training. As I am sure you are well aware, open carry of a firearm is legal without need for a permit outside of a vehicle, unless traveling within Philadelphia, a city of the first class. My personal choice is to primarily carry concealed, as I prefer any potential threat to not be aware of my carry status. However, as a registered LTCF, I do recognize and respect another's right to carry openly whenever they desire.

That being said, the summer weather and need for thinner clothing can present a unique challenge to firearm owners. When the need arises (and when we finally get some sun instead of rain out here), I may choose to open carry due to clothing constraints. I want to be confident that the professional officers of the community I reside, are aware and respectful of the right I am expressing. My desire is to prevent an uncomfortable encounter, for both your officers or me in the future, and verify that my rights will be respected without question or escalation. I am curious on your department's process and procedure when responding to either a non-LEO call for a "Man with a firearm" or perhaps a LEO observing a citizen open carrying while no RAS has taken place. A major concern is that a situation could be escalated with no just cause, leading to an embarrassing or worse, a potentially dangerous situation while in the company of my wife and/or 19 month old daughter. I would appreciate your thoughts and response to these concerns.

Thank you for your time and service to our community. Take Care.




His Reply, he copied in like everyone he knew in the entire world, lol

Mr. ******: Please be advised that ******** Officers are well aware of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms act as it pertains to carrying exposed weapons. However officers are not going to assume that an individual carrying an exposed firearm is simply exercising their right and does pose a possible threat nor are they going to ignore the situation if it arises. Officers approaching such an armed individual would be justified in taking precautionary measures until credibility is established.



Carrying a visible weapon in public could also cause undo alarm to the public at large. As a result the display in all probability will generate emergency calls to the police and again officers would respond cautiously. You should also be cautioned that depending on the circumstances in which the weapon is displayed, to include the perception of the alarmed person(s) you could be faced with other violations of the crimes code



The Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act permits the carrying of an exposed firearm in public but not in all public buildings such as schools or court houses. This right is also not extended to private property. Once again location and circumstance could result in criminal charges..



It would also be ill advised to enter establishments generally victimized by armed robbers as the reception from employees suspecting criminal activity could be less than cordial.



Your self expressed concern for embarrassing or potential dangerous encounters while carrying an exposed weapon are well founded and perhaps you have answered your own question. It is for these very reasons that most citizens seek permits to carry concealed

[BimmerJon]

Oh yea. Since he CC'ed in all of his officers and direct reports, I think it would be a great opportunity to send some info to them as well.

[Curmudgeon]

Did you get any completely positive responses?

Or, at least, mostly positive?

[BimmerJon]

Did you get any completely positive responses?

Or, at least, mostly positive?

I emailed 8 police Chiefs and the PSP.
This was the first and only reply thus far...
Not a good way to start out.

Guilty until proven innocent it seems. Do they pull over every driver to verify they have a license. Bystanders on the street that get "scared", should not be a reason to violate my rights...
It seems, everyone needs to be educated and become better informed that this is legal and you dont have to be a cop to carry.
Citizen education is the answer not firearm owner harassment.

I really want to get a reply out, because I feel his response did MORE harm than good to the 30 people he CC'ed on the email.
I felt it validated his officers to negative behavior

[Dannytheman]

Maybe you can possibly list the list of who you mailed to? I would love to know the one who responded so flippantly to you...

[BimmerJon]

Maybe you can possibly list the list of who you mailed to? I would love to know the one who responded so flippantly to you...

Since he emailed everyone he knew...

Chief Daly of the Springfield Police Force.

I also emailed (havent responded yet)

Marple
Ridley
Haverford
PA State Police
Upper Darby
Philadelphia
a couple others.


Attached is my reply. I really felt his reply had a negative, incorrect, and harmful message to his police officers.

I dont mind posting it, because I wrote it without assistance.

Thoughts are very welcome



(UPDATED FINAL VERSION FOLLOWS IN POST BELOW)

[shefearsnothing]

With the summer heat and need to wear less clothing, I wanted to reach out to my local police chief as well as neighboring communities.
My intention was to verify that the police officers were aware of the correct statutes and was curious to their stance and possible reaction to an OC'er encounter.
The response didn't sit well with me as I felt one Chief worded his reply like I would be a walking criminal and automatically guilty of RAS just for OC'ing.

NOTE: I am fully aware that this Chief and/or members of his legal team/officers may come across this thread. I am OK with that. Since in his reply email, he CC'ed the entire police force, his lawyers, some water company, a financial company, etc etc etc...lol

I am not looking for you guys to help me with an attack reply. I just want to respond and get my point across that I am a law abiding citizen with rights and I am in NO WAY "embarrassed" for wanted to protect myself and my family.


Names omitted out of respect, but may be added later on. thanks
Words in RED...just don't sit right with me


Chief ****,


Good evening. I am contacting you as an inquiry on the ******* Police force's level of awareness on our state's Firearms laws/updates to MPOETC training. As I am sure you are well aware, open carry of a firearm is legal without need for a permit outside of a vehicle, unless traveling within Philadelphia, a city of the first class. My personal choice is to primarily carry concealed, as I prefer any potential threat to not be aware of my carry status. However, as a registered LTCF, I do recognize and respect another's right to carry openly whenever they desire.

That being said, the summer weather and need for thinner clothing can present a unique challenge to firearm owners. When the need arises (and when we finally get some sun instead of rain out here), I may choose to open carry due to clothing constraints. I want to be confident that the professional officers of the community I reside, are aware and respectful of the right I am expressing. My desire is to prevent an uncomfortable encounter, for both your officers or me in the future, and verify that my rights will be respected without question or escalation. I am curious on your department's process and procedure when responding to either a non-LEO call for a "Man with a firearm" or perhaps a LEO observing a citizen open carrying while no RAS has taken place. A major concern is that a situation could be escalated with no just cause, leading to an embarrassing or worse, a potentially dangerous situation while in the company of my wife and/or 19 month old daughter. I would appreciate your thoughts and response to these concerns.

Thank you for your time and service to our community. Take Care.




His Reply, he copied in like everyone he knew in the entire world, lol

Mr. ******: Please be advised that ******** Officers are well aware of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms act as it pertains to carrying exposed weapons. However officers are not going to assume that an individual carrying an exposed firearm is simply exercising their right and does pose a possible threat nor are they going to ignore the situation if it arises. Officers approaching such an armed individual would be justified in taking precautionary measures until credibility is established.

Chief XXX, please further advise your officers that they may be subject to legal action if they are conducting illegal terry stops.


Carrying a visible weapon in public could also cause undo alarm to the public at large. As a result the display in all probability will generate emergency calls to the police and again officers would respond cautiously. You should also be cautioned that depending on the circumstances in which the weapon is displayed, to include the perception of the alarmed person(s) you could be faced with other violations of the crimes code

Chief XXX, please advise your officers that display of their weapons may cause undo alarm to the public at large. Additionally you may want to research case law which strikes down the notion that you can cite a citizen for disorderly conduct for the simple lawful act of openly carrying a firearm.

The Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act permits the carrying of an exposed firearm in public but not in all public buildings such as schools or court houses. This right is also not extended to private property. Once again location and circumstance could result in criminal charges..

Chief XXX, I am fully aware that I can openly carry into the courthouse but only as far as the location that security provides a storage facility as mandated in the UFA. Schools are another matter but there does seem to be some gray area as the statute reads that it shall be a defense that one is carrying for "any other lawful purpose". I have no issue with leaving private property at the request of the owner or management as I understand private property rights very well as outlined in the UFA. None of this is the nature of my correspondance with you of course.


It would also be ill advised to enter establishments generally victimized by armed robbers as the reception from employees suspecting criminal activity could be less than cordial.

Chief XXX, as previously stated I will leave any private property on request.

Your self expressed concern for embarrassing or potential dangerous encounters while carrying an exposed weapon are well founded and perhaps you have answered your own question. It is for these very reasons that most citizens seek permits to carry concealed

Chief XXX,I did not express concern for embarrassment or dangerous encounters because of openly carrying. I expressed these concerns because of lack of education or clarification on the part of local law enforcement. Many people from many walks of life choose their method of carry for many different personal reasons.

My thoughts in blue. Not very well thought out because it's a little loud in here. Gotta get out of here with the kids. I'm sure someone else will have something better.

[BimmerJon]

Final Version....

It is what it is..


Chief Daly,

Thank you, I do appreciate your prompt reply to my email. I felt that some of your responses were incorrect and misguided. This warranted a reply and a good opportunity to highlight some excerpts from this years MPOETC 2009 update. My intention here is to simply to ensure that a potential encounter is handled appropriately both on my side as well as your officers. Unfortunately, I have experienced some not so positive events when interacting with a LEO in the past (Not your department), where the gentleman clearly was not up to date on the legality of this topic. In an attempt to retain mutual respect and legality awareness on both sides of the fence, I have attached the following. (MPOTEC_OC_Update_2009)

Since you have CC'ed in your direct reports among others, out of professional courtesy, I will do the same. Thank you


Question # 1

-----What is “open carry”?

Answer # 1

-----Open carry can be defined as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or unloaded, on your person unconcealed,
with or without a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm.

Question # 2

-----Is “open carry” legal in Pennsylvania?

Answer # 2

-----Yes



(Quote = Chief Daly) "However officers are not going to assume that an individual carrying an exposed firearm is simply exercising their right and does pose a possible threat nor are they going to ignore the situation if it arises. Officers approaching such an armed individual would be justified in taking precautionary measures until credibility is established."

Question # 3

-----What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in open carry?

Answer # 3

------In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would not be legally justified.


(Quote = Chief Daly) "Carrying a visible weapon in public could also cause undo alarm to the public at large. As a result the display in all probability will generate emergency calls to the police and again officers would respond cautiously. You should also be cautioned that depending on the circumstances in which the weapon is displayed, to include the perception of the alarmed person(s) you could be faced with other violations of the crimes code"


Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun” would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they be required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct, reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an offense.



(Quote = Chief Daly) "It would also be ill advised to enter establishments generally victimized by armed robbers as the reception from employees suspecting criminal activity could be less than cordial."

Chief Daly,

I think it would be acceptable to agree that crimes can take place anywhere and are not limited to our homes, stores, streets, places of employment, etc. I choose to carry for this reason among others. If we could foresee crime by time and location, I would have less of a need to protect myself and family.



(Quote = Chief Daly) "Your self expressed concern for embarrassing or potential dangerous encounters while carrying an exposed weapon are well founded and perhaps you have answered your own question. It is for these very reasons that most citizens seek permits to carry concealed weapons. "

Chief Daly,

I did not express concern for embarrassment or dangerous encounters because of simply openly carrying. I expressed these concerns because of potential lack of education or clarification on the part of local law enforcement. Many people from many walks of life choose their method of carry for many different personal reasons. My question was not directed towards my potential reactions/actions to an encounter, but directed toward the process and procedure of your officers.



Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

[shefearsnothing]

*sigh* Still haven't made it out the door....kids messing around. Anyway, I hope you're keeping all this correspondance. Should you ever have any issues with his officers you have documentation of exactly how he's advising his officers.

[ungawa]

Good job. It sounds like you are copying the CC list he selected, make sure you do. Throw in the NRA and the PA AG, and your distirct state congress people. Mark these as CC at the end of the email so he doesn't miss them.

Attach the PDF of the pertinent section of the MOEPTEC training. If you missed the extended CC list and the PDF in the email response, you can send a follow-up with the PDF document for reference.

All these are just my suggestions.