Scope for .308 going out to 1000 yrds

**mojo** · June 16th, 2009, 10:37 PM

I'm not a scope guy at all. I use them, but I haven't really bought one in a long time. So, I have a co-worker that is buying a Remmy 700P .308

He is planning on taking the gun out to 500 yrds and would like to work it up to 1000 yrds.

I can't really hope so I'm hoping the wisdom of the forum can help me out.

As far as budget goes ... I'm not sure. I would say maybe a range would be good. I.E. mid range scope = XXX, higher end = XXX, etc

Thanks

**Tomcat088** · June 17th, 2009, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by mojo

I'm not a scope guy at all. I use them, but I haven't really bought one in a long time. So, I have a co-worker that is buying a Remmy 700P .308

He is planning on taking the gun out to 500 yrds and would like to work it up to 1000 yrds.

I can't really hope so I'm hoping the wisdom of the forum can help me out.

As far as budget goes ... I'm not sure. I would say maybe a range would be good. I.E. mid range scope = XXX, higher end = XXX, etc

Thanks

Howdy Mojo,

It sounds like your co worker has the right idea in a starting rifle and the realistic range that he wants to start working at, and trying to work out. He's one of the few people that I know that are realistic when they start to get into this game of long range shooting.

I'll see what I can do about optics and recommendations. Keep in mind that in terms of long range shooting, a "reliable" optic is one of the most important parts of the equation. If the optics aren't reliable, you're just wasting your time. For one of the most basic scopes that is reliable, you're gonna start with the super sniper scopes, which will be fixed power, and with a rear focus will start at around $320. The glass isn't the best, the clicks are a bit mushy (this can be fixed if you're brave), but they are reliable and pretty damn durable. Most people will want to start with a side focus, which that will put you in the $420 price range for the side focus (I think it's worth it). For a lot of people this is a lot to handle, for someone buying a 700P who sounds serious, it'll probably be considered a bit tough, but reasonable. This is the bare MINIMUM that I would recommend.

There is also a fixed power 10x tactical scope that is a Bushnell Elite 3200, which has great glass, repeatable, and reliable, but has less travel than the Super Sniper. For a .308 travel is very important, and if he isn't using near a 30 moa base and depending on what the scope needs from mechanical zero to get his actual zero, it might not have the travel he needs. This scope will actually be a bit cheaper in the $220 price range, but isn't gonna have as much travel. http://www.snipercentral.com/bushtact.htm Here's a review at snipershide for it. They also have a variable power Elit 4200 one that is a fair bit more expensive, and they review it as well. I'm sure the glass is definitely better, and it's reliable, so that's something to consider. http://www.snipercentral.com/bushnell4200.phtml For the travel that it has (still not a ton), it's a little bit disappointing for the price.

Some other optics that you are gonna hear about that aren't always as reliable, but very fine scopes with lots of features are going to be listed. These are fairly new companies, one of them just got bought out recently by Bushnell, so is getting even better. Some of them are working on their quality control, but most of them have great quality service and always end up satisfying the customer. You'll hear of scopes like the Millett TRS, which has had some quality control issues but so far seem to have worked them out, they start around $300. You have the options of the Millett LRS, which is what I own and so far has dialed reliably and has pretty dang good glass, on par with Bushnell Elite 4200. It starts around $400-450, and you get options like Generation II Mildots, and mil/mil adjustments, or MOA. For a serious tactical shooter, mil/mil adjustments is a big deal. If you search on this forum for Millett LRS, you can see my post about the scope, and how it differs from the TRS some, etc. So far I've been pleased with mine.

You're gonna hear a bit of talk about Mueller optics, which have some pretty nice scopes, but there's some little blah things here and there about their turrets, etc that make me favor Millett and others over them. Either way, they're someone to consider, I personally think they're on the "too cheap" side. http://www.snipercentral.com/muellertac.htm that's the 4x16 variable, and this is the 3x10 variable http://www.snipercentral.com/muellertac2.htm

You'll probably hear a bit about the Falcon Menace. They seem to be pretty durable scopes with pretty good repeatability. Few issues with some, but they also seem to be getting it worked out and have good customer service. http://www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm that's the big scope that is 4.5x18 variable, and has a big 56mm objective. It has an interesting reticle that many people don't like, so it's kind of hit miss. They also have a 4x14 with a 44mm objective (plenty big) that alot of people prefer over the 56mm objective. The 44mm objective has a FFP (First Focal Plane) reticle which is highly favored by most tactical shooters, but some people also don't like. http://www.snipercentral.com/menace4.htm . Both of these scopes are around the $400 range. I believe they offer in MOA and MIL adjustments now, originally only MOA.

You may hear a bit about Wonder Optics Tactical, which is also sometimes called WoTac. They're a very small up start company, but so far have offered pretty decent optics and VERY reliable repeatability as well, and great customer service. They even offer different turrets of your option. So far, they're new and upcoming, but everybody I know who has one of their scopes is pretty pleased with them. Pretty much the only people I know that own WoTac scopes are on snipershide, you can find information there about them, here's a review http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...=95921&gonew=1 . The thing some people don't like about them is that they have a MOA ranging reticle as opposed to the usual MIL reticle, but the adjustments are MOA/MOA, so the math is actually easier than MIL reticles with MOA adjustments that most people buy.

For the most part, these are some of the "cheap" to "mid range" options. When we start to get more expensive is when you break into the "more serious" tactical scopes. You'l basically start to hear about Leupold Mark 4 scopes, which is the standard that a lot of scopes are measured to, but not even close to the best. You'll hear of the IOR Valdada, etc, scopes. When you start to break into this range, you're looking at around $1100 or more.

Now when we get into the "cream of the crop" there are LOTS of opinions. The main names you'll hear thrown I'm gonna list. One that is less thrown around in the US because it doesn't have as much travel, and tend to be more expensive here for the features, is Hensholdt. They're ZEISS scopes and glass that is made to military standardsso they're quite durable and clear. The real big dogs you'll hear most people talk about are these. Nightforce, which are GREAT glass for the money and what a lot of people consider the best glass, features, and durability for the money in the high end. They'll be up in the $1800 and UP range. You'll hear of Schmidt and Bender which is what lots of militaries (including the US on some weapons) use. You'll hear of Premier Heritage, who is the new dog to the fight and are making a VERY good showing. There are LOTS of people selling their Schidt and Benders and Nightforce scopes to go to one of the Premier scopes. They're starting in the $2100 and up range (into $3K if you want). The other SERIOUS custom scope that most people will talk about is USO, United States Optics. While they have a "base" scope, most people that are spending this kind of money will get a full custom scope with their reticle, choice of color of reticle, turrent height, adjustment type, calibrated turrets, color, etc. These scopes are starting in the $2300-2500 range and going well up into the $3K range.

I'm not gonna list the features, trade offs, etc of the high end scopes because it's probably NOT what your friend is looking for at this time. If he is serious about that, then I'll be happy to do so, but my knowledge is limited of them. I have looked through Mark 4's, IOR, Hendsholdt, and Nightforce scopes, but not a USO or Premier yet. Either way, when you're talking about the serious high end scopes, we're talking about true "operator" reliability, options, and durability. If you search for any of these scope names, you will find quite a great deal on snipershide and snipercentral. You'll even find some information on this forum about these scopes. Snipercentral has quite a few reviews on some of these scopes that you can check out in the links I listed and some others here http://www.snipercentral.com/scopereviews.htm .

I hope this information helps, let me know if I can answer any of your questions about reticles, measurements, turret systems, objective sizes, or anything else. Best of luck to your friend, scope choice isn't something you should make overnight.

**mojo** · June 17th, 2009, 08:13 AM

Thanks for all the great info Tomcat, as always.

I'm also interested in this question, because I would like to start shooting past 100-200yrds. Not sure if I will try with my existing .270 or buy another gun for that.

**mrnyman** · June 17th, 2009, 08:12 PM

Also bear in mind that a scope magnifies the atmosphere that it is seeing through , for that you need clear bright optics especially at dawn or dusk, The European scopes cannot be beat for toughness, brilliance and just plain toughness . Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Kahles, IOR Valdada, and nightforce from Australia.
On the American side, Bushnell offers the best deal for your money, unless you can find a Springfield Tactical.
But i've seen people shoot .50 cal out to 1000 with just a plain old Bushnell 3-10x 50 4200

Nyman

**arrrrgh15** · June 17th, 2009, 08:32 PM

Toss a plug in there for Leupold Mk4 line. I use mine to 1000 yards regularly. Clear glass, mid range cost and the warranty is excellent. If you break it, send it back in for a new one.

**twoguns** · June 17th, 2009, 08:48 PM

It pays to shop around but optics are hard to do a comparison with regard to quality of the sight picture....it is not like you can take the thing out and shoot with it before you buy.

Having said that, own Nikon, Leupold, Zeiss and Bushnell. There is no doubt, as a previous poster stated, that the European]German (Zeiss, Kahles, Leica, etc.) optics are far and away the best glass you can find. You will also pay dearly for that level of quality, clarity and brightness but keep in mind if you can't see it you can't hit it. IMO, next on the list of quality is the Nikon line and pretty affordable. After that the Leupold can be good but depending on which line you go for the price is a bit high compared to what you will get with another from Germany.

It is my understanding that the Zeiss, Conquest (a 3-9 power with a 40mm objective lens) is on sale now for around $300 which is a steal for the quality. I have 2 of them and they are the best glass I own and dollar for dollar the best value in my judgment.

Best of luck and shoot safely. You should also look into a range-finder and a quality set of binoculars and a good spotting scope. This long range shooting stuff is not a cheap hobby but you gotta see it if you want to hit it.

**dieselguy624** · June 17th, 2009, 09:05 PM

I have two 10X42 Super Snipers one on a savage 10FP in .308 & the other on my AR. Great glass for the price as good as any loopy I've looked through. I have no issuues with mushy clicks & they are both very repeatable. If you know your "dope" you can shoot different loads for different situations. It's a great long range starter scope.

**Tomcat088** · June 17th, 2009, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by dieselguy624

I have two 10X42 Super Snipers one on a savage 10FP in .308 & the other on my AR. Great glass for the price as good as any loopy I've looked through. I have no issuues with mushy clicks & they are both very repeatable. If you know your "dope" you can shoot different loads for different situations. It's a great long range starter scope.

Maybe you aren't familiar with how clicks feel on high end scopes. They're not terrible, but on most of the SS scopes, they don't hold a candle some of the high end optics. Either way, you're right that they will dial reliably, and they're decent glass for the money. Sometimes SS have chromatic abberations and fringing on the edges, which can lead to eye fatigue, you don't usually see that in the medium to high end leupy's.

**Tomcat088** · June 17th, 2009, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by mrnyman

Also bear in mind that a scope magnifies the atmosphere that it is seeing through , for that you need clear bright optics especially at dawn or dusk, The European scopes cannot be beat for toughness, brilliance and just plain toughness . Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Kahles, IOR Valdada, and nightforce from Australia.
On the American side, Bushnell offers the best deal for your money, unless you can find a Springfield Tactical.
But i've seen people shoot .50 cal out to 1000 with just a plain old Bushnell 3-10x 50 4200

Nyman

Originally Posted by twoguns

It pays to shop around but optics are hard to do a comparison with regard to quality of the sight picture....it is not like you can take the thing out and shoot with it before you buy.

Having said that, own Nikon, Leupold, Zeiss and Bushnell. There is no doubt, as a previous poster stated, that the European]German (Zeiss, Kahles, Leica, etc.) optics are far and away the best glass you can find. You will also pay dearly for that level of quality, clarity and brightness but keep in mind if you can't see it you can't hit it. IMO, next on the list of quality is the Nikon line and pretty affordable. After that the Leupold can be good but depending on which line you go for the price is a bit high compared to what you will get with another from Germany.

It is my understanding that the Zeiss, Conquest (a 3-9 power with a 40mm objective lens) is on sale now for around $300 which is a steal for the quality. I have 2 of them and they are the best glass I own and dollar for dollar the best value in my judgment.

Best of luck and shoot safely. You should also look into a range-finder and a quality set of binoculars and a good spotting scope. This long range shooting stuff is not a cheap hobby but you gotta see it if you want to hit it.

I agree that they have some wonderful glass in European manufacturers. Some of it cannot be beat, while some of it is. I have some very trusted friends that consistently tell me USO and Premier glass look better than Swaro, Zeiss/Hendsoldt, and I know for a FACT IOR. I've compared IOR, and there is better glass to be found.

Now in terms of reliability and durability, I'm going to disagree with some of you here. Maybe that's what you've heard, and it might be your limited experience. I have seen 2, not one, but 2 Swarvoski scopes go all to hell while they were being shot on a .30-06. Both of the scopes had less than 20 rounds through them and then they went to chasing zero, DONE. This wasn't heresay, I WATCHED it happen. It was some 180 grain Barnes hunting bullets. I had a buddy that I was NOT at the range when it happened, but had a Zeiss do the same thing. For hunting scopes, they do fine, even for dialing a hunting scope some of them hold up pretty well. Either way, tactical scopes have different demands, and some of the manufacturers mentioned don't hold up well when it comes to tactical use. You don't have to believe me, go to snipershide where there are people that do this type of shooting for a carerr or with people's lives on the line. See what they think about a $2,000 Swarovski scope on a tactical rifle, or what they think of Kahles and Zeiss. Most of them won't touch a Zeiss on a tactical rifle, some are happy to use a Hensoldt, even if they think they don't have enough travel. Either way, I'd be careful about how "durable and tough" some of the European scopes are for tactical use.