Retention training opportunity

[reverserboy]

It sounds interesting but I haven't had any recent formal training as far as gun handling. I'm not sure how that ties into retention training.

As far as being bounced around....no biggie. I get plenty of that at the dojo.

I've been thinking about a blue gun for disarm training anyway.

[Carnes]

You'll be better off with a blue gun. That way you won't scratch your good one when I start flinging people to the ground!

I don't have a 'good' gun, just a Glock and I think it can handle being flung on the ground much better than I can.

I hope this class works out, and I can make it. I don't frequently get to train with people our size.

What sort of training have you done with that?

Nothing formal. I hope to change that.

The sights and hammer will tear up your partner's hands. Many people file off the sights off even blue guns for that reason.

I bet it would be hard on the hands. But does the added training value make up for that?

• After a disarm, or significant struggle for retention a "tap-rack" should be preformed to ensure the gun is ready for use. With a blue-gun this is simulated, with a training-barrel it can actually be preformed.
• Texture, weight and balance of the weapon will be nearly identical with training barrel.
• Training with the training barrel allows for a full mag to be in the weapon exposing and allowing for practice regarding mag-release problems.
• When gaining a sight picture, it is with your own sights.
• Exact fit and feel in the holster. (particularly important with SERPA and other polymer holsters)

People who do a lot of disarms and retention training cut off the trigger guards, or go to smooth wooden cutouts. Louis Awerbuck has some bent coathanger inventions that he uses in his courses, which apparently work fine.

In my experience I have come to favor training methodology that focuses on using the same tools, or tools as similar as possible, in training as will be used in practice. Also, I would rather practice full force techniques that I can actually apply in training even if they seem to be inferior to some other techniques. eg- I would rather train a choke that I can apply full force in training than some super-fu 'death strike' that I can only ever practice 'almost' executing because I don't want to kill my training partner.

Regardless, whatever the case is, I am interested in taking the course.

I like the training guns, with trigger guards in place (sights are optional), because they fit the holsters and can be presented properly.

So, if I am able to participate in the class, will my training barrel be acceptable, or do I need to add the cost of a blue gun to my budget?

[PeteG]

A couple of posts here have made reference to being "bounced around." I want to be clear that nothing in this level of training involves any throws, blows, strikes, trips or anything of the kind.

Bruises come from repeatedly blocking and grabbing. One continually bumpts the same spots doing repetitions, and after a day that spot is sore and can bruise.

There are some who believe one is not training unless they actually risk serious bodily injury. I believe such people are, to one degree or another, crazy. Once can reap the benefits of serious training and still be safe.

"Realistic" training is training done by real people. If it is not survivable, almost nobody will do it.

Of those who do engage in such "training" (due to some emotional need to be punished), about half will not survive. Such "training" is pointless, and hardly realistic.

[PeteG]

I bet it would be hard on the hands. But does the added training value make up for that?

No.

[Carnes]

I bet it would be hard on the hands. But does the added training value make up for that?

No.

Very enlightening.

It's your class, you run it however you like. I am going to come to learn a technique, not to debate the value of one technique over another. If a blue-gun is required I will get one. ...and that question still has not been answered. Perhaps you are leaving me to assume that it is obvious that a blue-gun is required... but we all know that saying about assumptions.

[Shawn.L]

It sounds interesting but I haven't had any recent formal training as far as gun handling. I'm not sure how that ties into retention training.

As far as being bounced around....no biggie. I get plenty of that at the dojo.

I've been thinking about a blue gun for disarm training anyway.

are you interested in joining us?

you should discuss how recent your training is with Pete and let him decide if that will meet the requirement.

[PeteG]

Very enlightening.

It's your class, you run it however you like. I am going to come to learn a technique, not to debate the value of one technique over another. If a blue-gun is required I will get one. ...and that question still has not been answered. Perhaps you are leaving me to assume that it is obvious that a blue-gun is required... but we all know that saying about assumptions.

I did not realize you were inviting enlightenment on on the relative merits of the two systems. I will tell you what I think.

I think the training barrels are great in situations where people are obliged, in the course of training, to point thier weapons in unsafe directions. They are like a chamber block, giving obvious assurance to all present that the weapon is not a live weapon, but they leave the slide and magazines operable. I am not convinced they are a good idea where people will be putting hands on the weapons, and pulling or pushing or twisting.

The points you address (your own sights; being able to actually do a tap-rack; exact feel of the gun in your holster; etc.) are, in my opnion, fine points which are of only slight, incremental value. The actual training value of having the exact feel of one's own firearm in the holster when a goblin grabs for it does not, in my opinion, justify any increase in the risk of injury to any participant. Ergo, my negative response.

Bear in mind it is not you who would likely suffer any injury that might occur in the course of doing numerous repetitions with a steel gun; it would be your partners.

As it is, trainers are often forced to have a class wear gloves to protect people's hands. We resort to that if people's hands get too sore. Wearing gloves makes the experience "less realistic," but they are less distracting than pain.

I gather the folks who have expressed interest in this particular seminar signing up to be introduced to the subject, and get the "big picture," such that they can then decide for themselves whether they think it is worth thier time to arrange means to practice regularly and pursue further training. I can do that with plastic trainers. In the meantime, objective number one is "survive the experience intact." To that end, we do a lot of things that make the training scenarios less like a real struggle (e.g., we go very slowly; we make sure nobody's fingers are inside the trigger guards; we limit each exercise to the point of breaking contact and then STOP).

For this course, bring a training gun. I also suggest you file or sand the sharp edges off the sights. I also suggest you bring the training barrel for your actual gun, and we can try it out.

[Carnes]

For this course, bring a training gun. I also suggest you file or sand the sharp edges off the sights. I also suggest you bring the training barrel for your actual gun, and we can try it out.

Awesome, sounds great!

Thanks for the added info.

I hope we get enough people to get a class together, and that the date works out for me.

For anyone else thinking about taking this class: Do it! I've taken two other courses through the F.I.R.E. Institute and they were definitely well worth the $$$. If you are newer to training, classes like this really give you the opportunity to realistically assess your level of preparedness, and if you are a training vet there is always something new to learn, or at least to get a good chance to 'brush-up' on known techniques. For a hundred bucks, you can't beat it anywhere.

[PennsyPlinker]

You'll be better off with a blue gun. That way you won't scratch your good one when I start flinging people to the ground!

A couple of posts here have made reference to being "bounced around." I want to be clear that nothing in this level of training involves any throws, blows, strikes, trips or anything of the kind.

No worries Pete, I didn't really think that we would be tossing one another about. You would probably need the other seven to toss me anyway. I will warn you, that I have a sense of humor that is sometimes a little on the warped side.

[Emptymag]

Sign me up.

Well, at least pencil me in until I do two things:
(a) Discuss with significant other.
(b) Verify with Pete and/or Tony that I qualify.

This sounds like something seriously worth the small investment.