Dealing with LEOs and a bogus RAS

[dlclarkii]

This is a what if situtation, a lot of times I'll open carry when I'm in a resturant. What if I'm enjoying my breakfast and the local police approach my table and ask me to surrender my weapon and provide my LTCF.

From what I understand from reading in this section would it more than likely go like this?

Me: I do not consent to this search and seizure but I'll comply, can you please state your RAS? Please tell me how you thought a crime has happened or will happen by me quietly sitting here minding my business enjoying my breakfast.

LEO: We got a call saying there was man with a gun and we were called to investigate. Please surrender your weapon and provide your LTCF.

Me: Again please state your RAS or otherwise an I'm free to go?

How would this evolve, is this in general how the situtation should be handled? What would progress next? If the LEO can't provide sufficient RAS then he can't detain you?

[cigarmanpa]

"man with a gun" is not a crime in pa. the act of owning a gun is not yet illegal in pa, the act of OCing is not illegal.

[mrjam2jab]

Please surrender your weapon and provide your LTCF.

I'm carrying openly...I dont need a LTCF...

[TXDMERC73]

all i can tell ya is try to tell the LEO you do not consent to surrenduring your firearm and wont provide your LTCF without a reasonable doubt... and find out what happens if the LEO forcibly takes your firearm if you dont consent then sue that police dept , if your open carry and dont have a LTCF ,they cant do anything either ,all they can tell you is to leave if the management prohibits firearms in the eatery... but remember to unload your gun before getting in the car angry if you dont have a LTCF.

[Statkowski]

Not too sure, but your situation sounds like one not overly likely to occur due to the current MPOETC training. But, then again, you are in Eastern Pennsylvania, and suffer from the Philadelphia influence, so such is possible.

(On an aside, I went to dinner tonight at an eatery (City Hotel & Grill, Northern Cambria) with my wife, son, his bride-to-be and both future in-laws. I was OCing. Nobody noticed. And, if anyone did, nobody commented.)

Appropriate response to the officer? "You came, you investigated, you saw no criminal activity. Please leave, or call a supervisor. My activities are legal, I am familiar with Pennsylvania's firearms laws, and you don't want to be on the receiving end of a federal civil rights complaint. However, if you insist, I will comply, but I do not consent."

[ReconLdr]

[QUOTE=TXDMERC73;738191]all i can tell ya is try to tell the LEO you do not consent to surrenduring your firearm and wont provide your LTCF without a reasonable doubt... and find out what happens if the LEO forcibly takes your firearm if you dont consent then sue that police dept , if your open carry and dont have a LTCF ,they cant do anything either ,all they can tell you is to leave if the management prohibits firearms in the eatery... but remember to unload your gun before getting in the car angry if you dont have a LTCF.[/QUOTE]

IANAL but I recall a thread about this (red text in quote) not being legal. If you are going to OC with out a LTCF you must leave your house on foot, or have a LTCF holder to transport for you. You can not transport your firearm for the purpose of OC.

[Frenchy]

all i can tell ya is try to tell the LEO you do not consent to surrenduring your firearm and wont provide your LTCF without a reasonable doubt... and find out what happens if the LEO forcibly takes your firearm if you dont consent then sue that police dept , if your open carry and dont have a LTCF ,they cant do anything either ,all they can tell you is to leave if the management prohibits firearms in the eatery... but remember to unload your gun before getting in the car angry if you dont have a LTCF.

If you do not have a LTCF, do NOT get in the car, when traveling with a firearm in a car with out a LTCF, you can not make stops along the way between your home and the destination (club, armory, gun shop)

[MuzzleFlash]

LEO: We got a call saying there was man with a gun and we were called to investigate. Please surrender your weapon and provide your LTCF.

Reply: "A man with a gun is not a crime and does not warrant an investigation, PA is an open carry state. I don't require a LTCF to open carry, nor am I required to provide one to a law enforcement officer without RAS. In America you're innocent until proven guilty, not suspected until proven innocent. Have you had your mandatory 'mopeck' training for 2009 yet?"

In response to the common "We're just doing our job" bit:

"I know the job title is a little vague, but the job of a law enforcement officer is to enforce the law. Being that I have not broken a single one, your job has no business with me."

Another excuse: "We're conducting an investigation"

Reply: "If I'm being questioned about an ongoing investigation, being detained, or arrested then I refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. If I'm free to go, I choose not to answer any questions. I do not consent to volunteer any information, I don't not waiver any of my constitutional rights, and I do not consent to any search or seizer of myself or my belongings. I will however comply under duress if you insist, but this should not be taken as consent to waiver anything."

*as I'm being stripped of my sidearm or arrested*

"You do realize this is an illegal search and seizer/arrest and you're in violation of the constitution and PA law, correct?"

I know it sounds like a lot, but put it in bullet point form in your mind.

Initial questioning:
- 1 A man with a gun is not a crime/does not warrant investigation
- 2 PA is open carry
- 3 No LTCF required
- 4 Not required to show ID/LTCF without RAS
- 5 Ask about 2009 training

"Doing our job" excuse:
- 1 Reverse their job title, "law enforce officers enforce law"
- 2 No law broken, nothing to enforce.

Investigation excuse:
- 1 Not required to answer without attorney present
- 2 Not required to waiver rights
- 3 Do not consent to search
- 4 Do not volunteer information
- 5 State that you'll comply under duress, but do not waiver or consent to anything

If you can memorize those, repeat them, number them, then you should be able to rattle it all off calmly and confidently when the big scary guys in blue are hovering over you trying to encroach on your rights. If you happen to carry some of these print outs around and wish to volunteer that information, it might help to verify your 'story' about the law.
http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf

Other information to be aware of is that RAS requires more than a gut instinct of wrong doing. There must be evidence. If they try to get you on a disturbing the peace charge, I believe that only qualifies if you're behaving violently, dangerously, being overtly loud, or being profane. (unable to find legal text to back this up for certain at the moment) Scaring the sheeple by your mere presence does not qualify.
If, and this has been reported on the forum before, an off duty or retired officer, or just some person off the street places you under citizens arrest, it is not valid. To be placed under citizens arrest the person being arrested must have committed a felony. Since you've engaged in no felonious activity, the person placing you under arrest is in violation of your rights. Ask them if they would like to let you go, settle out of court, or sell everything they own to pay their court fees. Or you can just walk away, if they attempt to stop you then respond as you would with any other aggressor.

[jcabin]

if they attempt to stop you then respond as you would with any other aggressor.

This was fantastic up until this point. Resisting arrest is a felony. You will lose everything. Do not consent but you must comply. Then settle it in court.

[ReconLdr]

This was fantastic up until this point. Resisting arrest is a felony. You will lose everything. Do not consent but you must comply. Then settle it in court.

JCabin - I believe muzzle flash was reffering to a citizens arrest. IANAL and could be wrong, but I don't think if a citizen tries to detain you for OC, you do not have to comply. Only if a LEO detains you, you must comply and sort it out in court.