Is the Deer Audit a Con?

[WhiteFeather]

http://acslpa.org/n-legislative/Deer...udit_a_con.htm

Go to the ACSL web site it has lots of supporting information to much to post here..

Here is the big picture
What is at stake is PA hunting heritage and being sold to the highest bidders. All of your game lands are the table table stakes that all of these "players" has designs for except for letting the hunters that purchased them use them.

Is the Deer Audit a Con?

The Legislative Budget & Finance Committee has officially awarded the Pennsylvania Deer Audit contract to the Wildlife Management Institute (WMI). Will this result in a comprehensive audit to determine an accurate evaluation of PGC deer management, or is the designed intent of the Rep. Levdansky Request for Proposal (RFP) to validate the current deer management plan? We believe all indicators point to the latter.

Is WMI an unbiased outside agency? WMI was a participant in the 1999 Audubon Deer Conference, which was the kick-off to implementing the current deer management plan.

Why is the drastic reduction of the deer herd the centerpiece of this management plan? The main stipulation in granting conditional “Green Certification” to Pennsylvania state forestland was that “overabundant” deer must be killed off, or green certification will not be renewed. Without the GREEN stamp of approval, lumber from the forest cannot be sold in Europe. So in essence, Pennsylvania deer management is governed by European environmentalism.

This is a useful tool for those with other agendas.

For homegrown environmentalists, it’s a step toward the restoration of our forests to the “pristine” wilderness that existed before the arrival of Western Civilization and our hunting culture.

A drastically reduced deer herd leads to reduced hunting license sales, which leads to reduced Game Commission funds. Reduced funds lead to renewed calls for merger. It’s of coincidence that the same politician who pushed this particular RFP, has been working behind the scene for years to merge the Game & Fish Commissions with DCNR, to “build a bridge to the environmentalists.”

Of prime consideration, is 1.6 million acres of coveted gameland. A depleted deer herd and reduced license sales lead to reduced gameland use. There is a cadre of special interest groups who have been semi-patiently waiting in the wings, eager to multi-use the gamelands, relegating hunters to second class citizens on a list of stakeholders.

Why was the watered-down Levdansky RFP pushed in preference of all others? Special commendation goes to the contrarian outdoor writer John Street, who, in his article “You ain’t gonna gitcherdeer”, has shed light on the machinations behind this effort.

Since before its implementation, the ACSL has fruitlessly been asking for the science behind the deer management plan, and it appears as though we may still be asking that same exact question after the audit is complete. Are we witnessing the beginning of the end of our hunting tradition, by the guiding hand of a self-anointed hunting czar? Who or what backroom oligarchy really wrote the RFP? Surveys of deer in West Virginia show approximately 40 per square mile yet here in PA the numbers have dropped dramatically. Aerial surveys by DCNR first showed 5-10 per square mile and the second survey showed 0-5 per square mile. Where do YOU think this is headed? Read these reports and information and YOU decide for yourself.

If you are into hunting, especially Deer huntin, You BETTER take some time to study this issue OR just let powerful special interest forces with a agenda and very deep pockets take your hunting opportunities away from you and your children in the future.

[Dredly]

The PGC is corrupt as shit. they are a bunch of rat bastards who care absolutely nothing for the hunter as anything other then their revenue stream.

[recoil freak]

http://acslpa.org/n-legislative/Deer...udit_a_con.htm

Go to the ACSL web site it has lots of supporting information to much to post here..

Here is the big picture
What is at stake is PA hunting heritage and being sold to the highest bidders. All of your game lands are the table table stakes that all of these "players" has designs for except for letting the hunters that purchased them use them.


If you are into hunting, especially Deer huntin, You BETTER take some time to study this issue OR just let powerful special interest forces with a agenda and very deep pockets take your hunting opportunities away from you and your children in the future.

I have a close friend who is a wild life biologist for PSU. He told me that it started out with good intentions and was going to work in the hunters favor but the bureaucrats got hold of it and now it's nothing but smoke and mirrors

[imp81318]

I highly recommend reading Deer Wars: Science, Tradition, And the Battle over Managing Whitetails in Pennsylvania (Link to Amazon Page)

It is a book written by Bob Fry with input from a multitude of people including previous game comissioners (Gary Alt being one of them), sportsman, biologists, and farmers, etc... The book basically details the history of deer management in PA. I am not quite halfway through it, and it has already started to really open my eyes.

Also, anyone who looks at an area with a deer exclusion fence can't honestly deny the impact of the deer on the forest...

[Dredly]

I highly recommend reading Deer Wars: Science, Tradition, And the Battle over Managing Whitetails in Pennsylvania

It is a book written by Bob Fry with input from a multitude of people including previous game comissioners (Gary Alt being one of them), sportsman, biologists, and farmers, etc... The book basically details the history of deer management in PA. I am not quite halfway through it, and it has already started to really open my eyes.

Also, anyone who looks at an area with a deer exclusion fence can't honestly deny the impact of the deer on the forest...

There is a very good reason for this...

WE CAN'T GET TO THE DEER!

If the PGC actually gave a shit they would open Sunday hunting and lengthen the seasons, make changes to harvest methods, give damage tags for forested areas that are hard hit.

PA is the land of the million hunters... the only reason that we have deer management issue is because of the people managing it and their piss poor policies that they keep implementing in order to raise more money for themselves.

Deer exclusion fence... Miles of fence nailed to trees... cost? tens of thousands.

Solution: Open hunting in that area between Trail A and Trail B from Road A to Road B, give out doe tags at a rate of 10.00 each under DMAP rules. Not only will you sell out and make MONEY instead of wasting it but you will help feed people who are down on hard times and you will take care of the deer issue. Not much screws up a deers pattern like a few gut piles

ORRRR

Open Sunday hunting on all public lands during the hunting seasons. You'll have so many people hitting the public land that the deer won't stand a chance.

Adopt a "doe first" policy - you must drop a doe during a previous season before you can harvest a buck. This is even more acceptable in my opinion now that crossbows have been legalized for usage by everyone and the early season muzzle loader season will allow harvesting a doe.

[WhiteFeather]

There is a very good reason for this...

WE CAN'T GET TO THE DEER!

If the PGC actually gave a shit they would open Sunday hunting and lengthen the seasons, make changes to harvest methods, give damage tags for forested areas that are hard hit.

PA is the land of the million hunters... the only reason that we have deer management issue is because of the people managing it and their piss poor policies that they keep implementing in order to raise more money for themselves.

Deer exclusion fence... Miles of fence nailed to trees... cost? tens of thousands.

Solution: Open hunting in that area between Trail A and Trail B from Road A to Road B, give out doe tags at a rate of 10.00 each under DMAP rules. Not only will you sell out and make MONEY instead of wasting it but you will help feed people who are down on hard times and you will take care of the deer issue. Not much screws up a deers pattern like a few gut piles

ORRRR

Open Sunday hunting on all public lands during the hunting seasons. You'll have so many people hitting the public land that the deer won't stand a chance.

Adopt a "doe first" policy - you must drop a doe during a previous season before you can harvest a buck. This is even more acceptable in my opinion now that crossbows have been legalized for usage by everyone and the early season muzzle loader season will allow harvesting a doe.

I can be Highly critical of the PGC upper management pratices and the policies (past, present and future as shown in links).

The prohibition of Sunday hunting is NOT of their making, nor is the PCG responsible for NOT allowing you to hunt on Sunday, it requires Legislation to be enacted to permit the PGC to use the Sunday hunting as a tool for management purposes of wildlife (game species).

ALSO PLEASE READ the attached articles off the link
http://acslpa.org/n-legislative/Deer...udit_a_con.htm
It documents the political games be played at our expenses to let special interest groups like anti-hunting groups (stakeholders) such as Audubon society decide how the state games lands are going to be managed (for no hunting in the future).

People need to follow the money on this one, the articles off link provides some answers, such as PA having green certification, to sell timber to the EU in a political deal to sell our hunting heritage out for others (stakeholders) agendas.

Most people have no idea how many groups (stakeholders) have designs for hunter's license paid for game lands, to turn them into something else. That your children or grand children won't be able to hunt on, and maybe even you if you don't get involved sooner, rather than after it's a done deal.

Dredly, the other points you are valid and solid management ideas

Fellow hunters, IF you care about the future of hunting and wildlife PLEASE READ, STUDY and GET INVOLVED before its too late.

[Dredly]

White Feather, good info I know you are a lot more knowledgeable about the attempts at making laws that have happened...

Has the PGC ever endorsed a bill that would allow Sunday hunting? They are as political org as they get in PA. I can't imagine a law related to hunting not passing when the PGC and hundreds of thousands of hunters are standing behind it.

[imp81318]

There is a very good reason for this...

WE CAN'T GET TO THE DEER!

If the PGC actually gave a shit they would open Sunday hunting and lengthen the seasons, make changes to harvest methods, give damage tags for forested areas that are hard hit.

PA is the land of the million hunters... the only reason that we have deer management issue is because of the people managing it and their piss poor policies that they keep implementing in order to raise more money for themselves.

Deer exclusion fence... Miles of fence nailed to trees... cost? tens of thousands.

Solution: Open hunting in that area between Trail A and Trail B from Road A to Road B, give out doe tags at a rate of 10.00 each under DMAP rules. Not only will you sell out and make MONEY instead of wasting it but you will help feed people who are down on hard times and you will take care of the deer issue. Not much screws up a deers pattern like a few gut piles

ORRRR

Open Sunday hunting on all public lands during the hunting seasons. You'll have so many people hitting the public land that the deer won't stand a chance.

Adopt a "doe first" policy - you must drop a doe during a previous season before you can harvest a buck. This is even more acceptable in my opinion now that crossbows have been legalized for usage by everyone and the early season muzzle loader season will allow harvesting a doe.

I agree with much of what you've proposed. However, so does the PGC. Your ideas are basically:
Lengthen seasons - already done in the form of early muzzleloader, running doe concurrently for entire 2-week antlered season, early archery, late muzzleloader

Make changes to harvest methods - done in the form of legalization of crossbows during archery season.

Give damage tags for forested areas hit hard - not sure that this is specifically done, but there are damage tags awarded to farmers.

Based purely on your post, it doesn't sound like you really understand the point of the deer exclusion fences. They are as much about research and assessment of the extent of impact of whitetails on the forest as they are about allowing that area of forest to regenerate. Everyone realizes they're costly and inefficient in that regard, but they are necessary in order to compile data to convince the people setting the policies to change their mindset and to actually listen to the advice of their own biologists and environmentalists rather than buckling to the constant pressures from hunters to see more deer in the woods.

All of your points are in line with the intent (from what I've gotten out of it to this point at least) of the Deer Wars book I mentioned, which is that drastic means must be taken to cut the deer herd in order to allow the forests to recover over a period of time so that they can sustain a larger herd again in the future, and that herd will have to be managed and limited much more effectively than what has happened in the past, which means not buckling to the pressures of hunters that want to see 50, 60, 70 deer a day...

[Dredly]

I agree with much of what you've proposed. However, so does the PGC. Your ideas are basically:
Lengthen seasons - already done in the form of early muzzleloader, running doe concurrently for entire 2-week antlered season, early archery, late muzzleloader

Make changes to harvest methods - done in the form of legalization of crossbows during archery season.

Give damage tags for forested areas hit hard - not sure that this is specifically done, but there are damage tags awarded to farmers.

Based purely on your post, it doesn't sound like you really understand the point of the deer exclusion fences. They are as much about research and assessment of the extent of impact of whitetails on the forest as they are about allowing that area of forest to regenerate. Everyone realizes they're costly and inefficient in that regard, but they are necessary in order to compile data to convince the people setting the policies to change their mindset and to actually listen to the advice of their own biologists and environmentalists rather than buckling to the constant pressures from hunters to see more deer in the woods.

All of your points are in line with the intent (from what I've gotten out of it to this point at least) of the Deer Wars book I mentioned, which is that drastic means must be taken to cut the deer herd in order to allow the forests to recover over a period of time so that they can sustain a larger herd again in the future, and that herd will have to be managed and limited much more effectively than what has happened in the past, which means not buckling to the pressures of hunters that want to see 50, 60, 70 deer a day...

The hunting seasons haven't really changed in decades as far as I know other then the change in white-tail season.

Muzzle loader season has always been 2 weeks, Archery season has always been the same as well. The only changes are the "Early and extended" seasons that the city WMU's have.

The change to allow crossbows has nothing to do with increasing the deer harvest and everything to do with additional revenue. This is made very clear by the season not running concurrently with the muzzle loader season. Its also been proven in many states previously that deer harvest does not increase noticeably by allowing crossbows in the woods. Harvest WOULD increase by permitting Sunday hunting as it would double the amount of time most hunters can spend in the woods.

Red Tags are given to farmers who can prove they lose enough money due to deer damage, its only done on private land. DMAP tags are available but they are in line with the same hunting requirements of the normal seasons which makes them basically worthless and will have limited if any impact on deer harvest numbers on the DMAP lands.

far as I know the deer exclusion fences are typically setup around an area that has either been destoryed (storm) or timbered out and they are trying to get new stuff to grow, so they set up the fence to try and keep the deer out

[imp81318]

The fences are setup in areas damaged by storms, or timbered, but they serve additional purposes beyond just allowing stuff to grow. It may not be a stated intent of the fences, but at the very least they demonstrate to even the most casual observer the effect deer have on the forest, and help to show what biologists have been saying for decades...