Short video and some thoughts from this weekends course

[mercop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITrDaRaSfSQ


We had some pretty interesting things happen during the class that I don't whether they were caught on tape or not.

One was that during a robbery scenario I specifically had the bad guy approach the good guy and ask to "hold his cell phone" which is popular verbiage for a robbery. After the scenario I asked the good guy what the bad guy said to him. He said he could not remember, either the guy asked him for money or for the time. This particular student is in his early 50's and a damn good shooter and has been to several of the big name schools but no experience with force on force. He was worried that his recollection would make him look like a liar.

During another gun vs knife scenario a student dropped an airsoft and it discharged striking an innocent bystander (another student) in the femoral artery.

During one of the few times I was a bad guy I was one of two. It was a the car theft scenario. After the good guy engaged my partner I charged him from about 10-12 yards away with a bright blue rings blue gun box cutter, slashing as I ran. He was cut to shreds and said he never saw the box cutter. Not sure how people think they would be able to see a real box cutter or steak knife in low light conditions.

I told every student to expose their gun so they could draw as fast as possible. On a visual cue they drew, some of them very fast. Then I had them put on head gear. Again on the visual cue they were told to draw, as soon as they went for gun I pimped slapped them in the side of the head. All of their hands came off the gun, they stumbled to the side and did not complete the draw even with an exposed pistol. From there they took turns doing the same to each other and also used backhands. These are what I would call anti-gun techniques


One of biggest problems was getting students to scan and take their time returning to holster. Everyone was in a hurry to holster.

The only time I usually wear the Woolrich vest is when I am on the range. The vast majority of the time I wear a Blue gun so as not to have the safety concern when showing things on the line. The vest also allows me to draw from concealment or remove completely to show a technique. One particular student who was wearing a vest almost shot through it during live fire. On the cue he threw it back to clear it but as he stepped back to the left as instructed it came forward of the muzzle.

Selection of carry equipment is always covered in class. Here are some things that I see all the time and this class was no different.

Paddle holsters fail horribly for in the holster weapon retention.

IWB holsters that collapse after the gun is drawn are bad.

There is a big difference between drawing on the range and during dynamic scenarios. When pistols are concealed by things like t-shirts, polo shirts etc you will often draw with your shirt wrapped over the grip of you pistol and may not realize it until you are into the scenario

I am sure some of the class will have some comments to add as well.- George

[BerksCountyDave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITrDaRaSfSQ


We had some pretty interesting things happen during the class that I don't whether they were caught on tape or not.

One was that during a robbery scenario I specifically had the bad guy approach the good guy and ask to "hold his cell phone" which is popular verbiage for a robbery. After the scenario I asked the good guy what the bad guy said to him. He said he could not remember, either the guy asked him for money or for the time. This particular student is in his early 50's and a damn good shooter and has been to several of the big name schools but no experience with force on force. He was worried that his recollection would make him look like a liar.

During another gun vs knife scenario a student dropped an airsoft and it discharged striking an innocent bystander (another student) in the femoral artery.

During one of the few times I was a bad guy I was one of two. It was a the car theft scenario. After the good guy engaged my partner I charged him from about 10-12 yards away with a bright blue rings blue gun box cutter, slashing as I ran. He was cut to shreds and said he never saw the box cutter. Not sure how people think they would be able to see a real box cutter or steak knife in low light conditions.

I told every student to expose their gun so they could draw as fast as possible. On a visual cue they drew, some of them very fast. Then I had them put on head gear. Again on the visual cue they were told to draw, as soon as they went for gun I pimped slapped them in the side of the head. All of their hands came off the gun, they stumbled to the side and did not complete the draw even with an exposed pistol. From there they took turns doing the same to each other and also used backhands. These are what I would call anti-gun techniques


One of biggest problems was getting students to scan and take their time returning to holster. Everyone was in a hurry to holster.

The only time I usually wear the Woolrich vest is when I am on the range. The vast majority of the time I wear a Blue gun so as not to have the safety concern when showing things on the line. The vest also allows me to draw from concealment or remove completely to show a technique. One particular student who was wearing a vest almost shot through it during live fire. On the cue he threw it back to clear it but as he stepped back to the left as instructed it came forward of the muzzle.

Selection of carry equipment is always covered in class. Here are some things that I see all the time and this class was no different.

Paddle holsters fail horribly for in the holster weapon retention.

IWB holsters that collapse after the gun is drawn are bad.

There is a big difference between drawing on the range and during dynamic scenarios. When pistols are concealed by things like t-shirts, polo shirts etc you will often draw with your shirt wrapped over the grip of you pistol and may not realize it until you are into the scenario
I am sure some of the class will have some comments to add as well.- George

*bold mine*

Just one of the many reasons I OC.

Great writeup though, some good food for thought.

[mercop]

As I have stated before, ideologically I believe in OC, tactically I do not advocate it.- George

[BerksCountyDave]

As I have stated before, ideologically I believe in OC, tactically I do not advocate it.- George

We'll agree to disagree then. I'm not starting yet another OC vs CC here. Just wanted to point out that the clothing snags are one viable reason to do so. When are you doing another force on force class?

[mercop]

Should be JUL/AUG in Quakertown. Hope to see you there.

I would be perfectly happy in country where everyone carried a gun on their hip. That is just not the way it is. My tactical mindset is awareness, avoidance and fighting when you have to. I don't want anyone focusing on me or my family because they see a gun. I also like to do things the same way all the time for continuity. So far this year I have carried a gun in PA, NJ, FL, IN, and TX. The last three were very unfamiliar to me and I want to be the gray man and go on about my business with no interruptions.- George

[BerksCountyDave]

Should be JUL/AUG in Quakertown. Hope to see you there.

I would be perfectly happy in country where everyone carried a gun on their hip. That is just not the way it is. My tactical mindset is awareness, avoidance and fighting when you have to. I don't want anyone focusing on me or my family because they see a gun. I also like to do things the same way all the time for continuity. So far this year I have carried a gun in PA, NJ, FL, IN, and TX. The last three were very unfamiliar to me and I want to be the gray man and go on about my business with no interruptions.- George

I certainly understand what you're saying regarding traveling to other places. But I'm a loser and almost never leave PA, so OC works for me regarding continuity, since I OC easily 95%, probably closer to 99% of the time.

[mercop]

If nobody bats an eye where you live then go for it. I travel..a lot. People found out this weekend how hard it can be to retain your weapon even when it is concealed. Both on the ground and standing.- George

[djturnz]

Looks like a sweet class.

[XD40coyote]

You ever have these classes locally? Meaning York county, since your location says Red Lion.

I think part of the problem is everyone is nervous at the classes! But then that bit of being clouded can simulate the tense situations the training is intended for. Thoughts on that? It seems every time I do some target shooting I am always nervous at least at first. But I did admirably well after warming up with the slug gun on the rifle range, then going to the pistol range. I had one guy I know show up who always kids me about everything, and he made me nervous. So what do I do? After setting up one of those 8" shoot n see targets at 10 yards, I empty a mag of 9mm into it with real fast firing. All the hits were within the 8" circle. I made him say "dang I won't want to piss her off!" to the other guy I was with. I have no idea why I shot that mag fast so well and at 10 yards to boot.

Anyway, the OP's info above just goes to show that you need practice, mindset, practice, mindset, practice, practice, and more practice.

[fingers80002]

As I have stated before, ideologically I believe in OC, tactically I do not advocate it.- George

Confused? how can you be on both sides?