Going to buy a Mosin Nagant. What should I look for?

[bripro]

Ive got a couple gun shows coming up local real soon and Ive decided to try to pick up a Mossin Nagant. Ive shot a few at my range and would love to have one of my own. I know the price should be right around a hundred dollars for a surplus one but what exactly should I be looking for, besides the obvious, if there are a few to choose from? Thanks in advance, Brian

[PA Rifleman]

Ive got a couple gun shows coming up local real soon and Ive decided to try to pick up a Mossin Nagant. Ive shot a few at my range and would love to have one of my own. I know the price should be right around a hundred dollars for a surplus one but what exactly should I be looking for, besides the obvious, if there are a few to choose from? Thanks in advance, Brian

Right now most of what I see in the distributor channels is mostly M91/30s (full-length, metric sights). Once in a while you'll see am M-44 (carbine length, side folding bayonet)

Most of your criteria will depend on how you plan to use it. For a basic hunting rifle, a quick headspace test to verify safety and it's all subjective from there.

If you're a history junkie (such as yours truly), you'll likely be a lot more discriminating, to the point of being called a snob. If this describes you, read on....

A few items to put on your checklist:

• Matching witness numbers
• Counterbored muzzle
• Round or the so-called "Hex" receiver
• Laminated or regular wood stock
• Special markings (MO, Dragoon, etc)

"Hex" receivers (actually half-octagonal) were made before approximately 1930. Prior to 1930, the manufacturing was done on the old machinery that used the imperial units. For instance, the rear sight elevation unit is the Arshin or Arshine, depending on who you talk to. An Arshin is 71 centimeters or .71 meters, also 2.33 feet.

Around 1930 Russian arms manufacturing went metric, and simplified some of the manufacturing steps. Older 1891 pattern rifles were retrofitted with the newer metric sights. This is why you still find half-octagonal receivers with metric sights. Original Mosins fitted with the Arshin sight are less common, but not impossible to find. They tend to be in poorer condition and have rough bores. There are Mosins around that even pre-date the 1898 modern firearms rule, which means Mosins made between 1891 and December 31, 1898 are in the same classification as black powder guns.

Counterboring is a process that removes the interior surface of the bore at the muzzle for an inch or more down the bore, and reshapes the "crown" where the counterboring stops. It's a dead-giveaway of a major rebuild, and very likely abusive cleaning techniques that led to cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. The Mosin rifle was originally issued with a false muzzle (kit photo link) to prevent this, unfortunately it wasn't always used. So, I avoid counterbored muzzles if I intend to resell later, shoot now or both.


-- --

Various representations of counterbored muzzles, a post-manufacture repair.



Cleaning tools set up properly. Note false muzzle (cap) to prevent cleaning rod from contacting rifling at muzzle. Failure to use the muzzle cap causes premature rifling wear at the muzzle.

Laminated stocks appeared very late on Mosins in W.W.II, and until recently I suspected they were mostly limited to M1944 carbines. Laminated M1891/30 stocks were less common, laminated M1938s were very rare. And most of the M1938 laminated stocks were M1944 carbine stocks (recess cut for the folding M44 bayonet). There were a few surplus arms peddlers selling laminated M1938s, but all were counterbored. Interestingly, the laminated stock was a stopgap measure to make spare stocks from wood scraps that would have been otherwise unsuitable for gun stocks. The cross grain structure tended to cancel the effect of warping from heat changes and humidity, making these stocks less prone to warping than the conventional hardwood stocks they replaced. All the M1891/30 laminated stocks that I'm aware of were replaced after the end of W.W.II. Laminated 91/30s are plentiful on the surplus market right now in both round and "hex" receivers.


Laminated stock on a model M1891/30


M1938 carbine in a M1983 laminated stock (rare)


Hardwood stock on an ex-sniper (fairly common)

All matching numbers come in two basic flavors, matched and so-called "forced match". Matched can be all original, or incomplete gun with parts later added and machine-stamped after the fact to match. It's hard to tell the difference, particularly if the same stamping machine was used to match the more-recently added parts. Forced match means one or more witness-marked part was misnumbered, most likely from a donor gun elsewhere. The original number was crossed out and a new number was stamped or electro-penciled on the surface.


Example of force-match. Click to enlarge.

Electro pencilling was done mostly after the end of W.W.II, so it's a good clue the specimen's a post-war rebuild.

More considerations:

• Mosin rifles made or rebuilt after approximately 1930 are found in three major models: M91/30, M1938 and M1944. The 1938 and 1944 are roughly the same rifle, the 1944 has a side-folding bayonet, the 1938 carbine lacks this feature, and does not take a bayonet. While intuition steers many towards selecting the bayonetted model, the 1938 is actually a little better balanced since the bayonet folds on the side of the 1944 (details, photos). There's also been quite a bit of discussion how the bayonet position affects zero on the 1944. I prefer the M1891/30 or the M1938 carbine, and the bayonet on the M1944 makes the carbine feel a little unbalanced to me. Not enough to be problematic, but enough that the M1938 gets first pick in the range case.
• They fire 7.62x54R ammunition. Right now it's still available, but the selection is getting limited to 2-3 choices. The good news is Mosin rifles are miserly with ammunition, so a 440-round tin should last a while. Stock up when you find it cheap, not when you need it.
• If you're not accustomed to rifles, consider trying out a friend's rifle first. Ideally a 22, then work your way up. The 7.62x54R that the Mosin fires is a high-powered rifle round by today's standards. They also have a bit of a report (and recoil) and 1-2 foot fireballs at the M1938 & M1944 carbine muzzle aren't unheard of.
• They're not suitable for telescopic sights due to the receiver design. If you want a scope on your Mosin, buy a sniper variant with a steel base. Some are aluminum, avoid these like the plague. (details) Another option is aftermarket scope mounts that replace the rear sight, you'll need to look around to see whether people like these or not.
• Check head clearance (definition) before firing for the first time. (details)
• Purchasing selection points - I usually ask for all matching witness numbers and avoid counterbored muzzles. It's a cosmetic issue since I want them to retain as much collectible value as possible. Also, laminated stocks seem to have a little more collector interest than the original hardwood stock.
• Please familiarize yourself with bolt disassembly and reassembly, and also setting firing pin protrusion before firing your Mosin.

If you're considering a telescopic sight, take a look at the reproduction "sniper" offerings:

Mosin M91/30 sniper

At $400, the price is mostly the sum of the parts...$100 (rifle)...$150 (scope)...$50 (turned down bolt handle)...$100-$150 (mounts).

Finnish Mosins
If you'd prefer more accuracy, consider a Finn Mosin:

Finn M39, early straight-stock (less commonly encountered)

When the Finns separated from Russian around 1917-18, they inherited a *lot* of Mosin receivers. The Finns developed their own flavor of the Mosin, and as such they have their own set of model numbers. The Finn Mosins are well known for premium accuracy and being the benefactors of good care. All the examples I've seen to date were not pitted or had any corrosion. Most of what I'm seeing are the later M39s.

There are a dizzying array of Mosin variants prior to the M1891/30, and when you add the variations on markings and manufacturers, it expands the field even more.

As far as which model, that's up to you. The M1891/30 is the most commonly found model, the M1944 is the second most common. I prefer the 91/30 or the M1938, as they are essentially the same exact rifle except for the barrel length. The M1944 is the M1938, with the addition of a side-folding bayonet. The side-folding bayonet makes the rifle slightly unbalanced to me, but not enough to affect the shooting experience. In the end, it'll be a matter of your preference. Many Mosin owners (myself included) choose to buy one of each model, sometimes multiples of each. With prices being held low by ample supply, it is a very inexpensive entry point into the shooting and Curio & Relic collecting hobby.

Reading assignment:
http://www.mosinnagant.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
http://7.62x54r.net/

There are too many web pages to list in the time I have to type this post, so I'll let you browse a google search result for yourself:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

The result of unsupervised Mosins: More Mosins.


And then there's the topic of ammunition, which leads to cleaning techniques after firing corrosive ammunition...that'll be another post. I will close with this picture:



Grab it when you find it. It's the can opener for opening ammunition cans. They have an amazing ability to vanish when needed most, and remain underfoot the rest of the time.

[OhioXD]

Great overview PA, thanks.

How hard is it to strip and clean a Mosin? Any other routine maintenance tasks that they need?

And how reliable do they tend to be? Are there many things like springs that might have to be replaced to get one working reliably? I've got a Garand and Carbine that both needed some various springs replaced to get them to feed and eject properly 100% of the time, but I'd think that a bolt action would be a lot simpler in that regard.

[RandomTask]

Look for the ones with this emblem on the receiver:

[PA Rifleman]

Look for the ones with this emblem on the receiver:

They might be looking for a little while

Swiss Schmidt-Rubin, I presume?

[Spamchicken]

Save up a little more money, get a rusty, old M44 with a ton of surplus ammo, gather your friends together for the fireworks; thank me later.

[PA Rifleman]

Great overview PA, thanks.

How hard is it to strip and clean a Mosin?

Aside from the bolt (details), one only needs a room temperature IQ and a plain flat-blade screwdriver. The rifles were issued with rudimentary cleaning gear, which (ironically) included a false muzzle to protect the rifling. And judging by the large number of counterbored barrels, they weren't used.

Today I clean Mosins the same as all the others -- Dewey plastic coated rod down the barrel and detail clean everything else. Google corrosive ammunition cleaning techniques, everything else is plain housekeeping.

The first Mosin was the model 1891, as in accepted in 1891. Like it's contemporaries, it had a single-stack magazine that protruded down through the stock and was integral with the trigger guard. It also had a split bridge receiver like the 1888 Mauser and the Italian Carcano. That said, it was appropriate for battlefield conditions in Russia in the first world war. All the subsequent models were minor variations on this same basic design.

Here are a few comparables, note the split bridge receiver and protruding magazine on each:

Carcano (1891)


Mauser M1888 Commission Rifle (1888)

Any other routine maintenance tasks that they need?

Proper cleaning (in terms of chemicals) after firing corrosive ammunition. If you use non-corrosive (read: commercially-loaded ammo like Priv, Norma, etc) then even this is a non-issue.

And how reliable do they tend to be?

Like any machine, they have their strengths & weaknesses. Unreliability & Mosins generally tend to be mutually exclusive. Meaning, I've only seen ONE internet report of a breakage. I recall another poster on the now defunct rec.guns actually tried to blow a Mosin up, he wasn't successful. I haven't been able to find his report of this test, tho (search results).

As mentioned previously, the weakness tends to focus in three basic areas:

• Ergonomics - bolt handle location
• High extraction effort - often caused by residual preservative or burrs in the chamber
• Mediocre accuracy - mostly poor barrel bedding & ammunition quality.

Are there many things like springs that might have to be replaced to get one working reliably?

Not really, I hear a lot of complaints about sticky chambers and high bolt opening force, both of which tend to diminish with regular shooting. Over the years I had two that I pulled, one had excess headspace, the other had stripped firing pin threads. The headspace issue went back to the importer, I fixed the latter.

... I'd think that a bolt action would be a lot simpler in that regard.

And you would be very correct.

[PA Rifleman]

Save up a little more money, get a rusty, old M44 with a ton of surplus ammo, gather your friends together for the fireworks; thank me later.

Why would that be???







OP -- I also found this:
http://tfrwiki.midworld.co.uk/wiki/i...sin-Nagant_FAQ

[SigSauer226]

Another good place for Mosin information is http://7.62x54r.net/

[PA1936MN]

Lots of good information here.

In all honesty unless your collecting find a Mosin Nagant with a good bore and your good to go.

The disassembly of the bolt is by far the easiest out there. And after you do it a few times you should be able to disassemble it in less then a minute and reassemble it in less then a minute as well.

I would disassemble your bolt and boil the parts to get all the Cosmoline out. And I would do the same to the receiver and barrel. For the barrel just pour hot boiling water down it a few times and you should be good to go.

As for the stock place it in a black trash bag wrapped in paper towels and let it sit in the sun for a few hours. Wipe it off and let it bake again and wipe it off. This will get most of the Cosmoline out.

As for ammo just get surplus ammo it is cheap. Widners has it for the best price on the market. But after every shooting session you need to throughly clean the rifle. Boil all the parts down with hot water and or spray with WINDEX to remove the corrosive salts. I use WINDEX, much easier. Then clean like normal.

Also not sure what the gunshows are like over in Lancaster, but unless you can get the dealer to lower their prices. I bet your going to be spending $100-$150 for a typical M91/30 and around $150-$200 for a M44 and expect to pay much more for a M38, Sniper model, Finn capture...