Misfeed? Cleaner? Bad ammo? Bad Gun? Something critical?

[camper]

I've got a Norinco 1911 that I bought from a friend, who bought it about 15-20 years ago new and only fired 3 or 4 rounds through it before putting it away in his safe. I've been taking it to the range every now and then, and have probably put about 100-250 rounds through it...mix of brass & aluminum.

On my first day with it, I was having some misfeed problems, took about 20 rounds with no issue and then would misfeed after the 2nd or 3rd shot. I'd cycle the slide, eject the round, and continue. Did this at least one or two times per magazine. Figured it was because I didn't clean the pistol before taking it out.

I picked up a couple new magazines for the next outing, gave it a good cleaning, and then it worked perfectly. It did misfeed from the original magazine, but not the new ones...thought problem was solved. Cleaned it well when I got home.

On the third trip out, ran a box of 50 through it and had one or two misfeeds total using the new magazines. This was in the 1st or second magazine load. None after. Cleaned it about a week or so after, and a few days before this past weekend.

This past weekend, took it out again. I had one misfeed on the new mag. However, I also noticed what seemed like 'flaking' after running a few magazines. It kind of drifted down like ash after I fired, and when I collected my brass I noticed that many of the rounds looked blackish near the bullet end (not the primer side). A couple also looked like the brass was scratched, and while I'm pretty sure it was from my use it could have been left behind (or stepped on) I really don't know.

The misfeeds are annoying, and have relegated this to being only a range gun since I don't trust it enough to carry or use for home defense. The black flakes (or whatever they were) are worrisome because I don't knwo what's causing it. I've read it may be too much oil. I accidentally over oiled it and thought I got it all, I may not have so I'm leaning towards this...but the odd scratches on one of the cartridges has me worried.

I was shooting all brass, Blazer ammo. I use Gunslick cleaner & oil. All rounds sounded consistent, and the gun seemed to perform normally and as expected; other than as noted (misfeeds & flaking).

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions as to what's happening?

camper

[gold cup abuser]

when you say misfeed can you clarify the area and type of stoppage?

is the bullet stopped at the feedramp?

is the bullet wedged betweeen the top of the chamber and the feedramp?

is the bullet stove piping and not clearing the ejector port?

are there machine marks or other burrs on the feed ramp?

have you fully takend down the slide assembly including the extractor and cleaned out that area?

have you changed the recoil spring?

first start with a complete detail strip of the pistol down to the bare frame and slide.

clean out the firing pin and extractor area.

inspect the extractor for any signs of wear or breakage at the tip that makes contact with the rim of the case.

inspect the feed ramp area for any burrs or machine marks.

inspect the barrel chamber area, again look for any type of machine marks inside the chamber area, or other dirt and debris.

check the fit of the ejector that is on the frame. look for any type of wear or machine marks and make sure the pin in the frame that holds this part in place is there and is not sitting flush in beteween the rails.

you may just need a new extractor.....

you might also check and change the recoil spring it might not be to spec and is not cycling the slide properly. Get a Wolf 18 pound spring if all the other inspected items are clear.


good luck and safe shooting

[bamboomaster]

when you say misfeed can you clarify the area and type of stoppage?

is the bullet stopped at the feedramp?

is the bullet wedged betweeen the top of the chamber and the feedramp?

is the bullet stove piping and not clearing the ejector port?

are there machine marks or other burrs on the feed ramp?

have you fully takend down the slide assembly including the extractor and cleaned out that area?

have you changed the recoil spring?

first start with a complete detail strip of the pistol down to the bare frame and slide.

clean out the firing pin and extractor area.

inspect the extractor for any signs of wear or breakage at the tip that makes contact with the rim of the case.

inspect the feed ramp area for any burrs or machine marks.

inspect the barrel chamber area, again look for any type of machine marks inside the chamber area, or other dirt and debris.

check the fit of the ejector that is on the frame. look for any type of wear or machine marks and make sure the pin in the frame that holds this part in place is there and is not sitting flush in beteween the rails.

you may just need a new extractor.....

you might also check and change the recoil spring it might not be to spec and is not cycling the slide properly. Get a Wolf 18 pound spring if all the other inspected items are clear.


good luck and safe shooting

Just wanna let you know you give awesome advice at how to address a malfunction from a "It's the pistol's fault" point of view. I'm saving your remarks (not kidding!) because you are right on when it's the pistol's fault.

But just to add some fuel to the fire, it could be the shooter's fault (limp wrist, etc) or the round's fault (underpowered loads, poor quality control on whatever ammo the shooter used, etc).

FWIW, I'm dumb enough to know I don't know all the answers. And I'm smart enough to know it isn't always the pistol's fault...

But hey, couldn't believe the interval between cleanings...

Unloved = unwanted? If I was the pistol, I'd be asking myself, "Why should I give a rat's a$$ about shooting well for you?"

With all respect, maybe it's about time the shooter put some skin in the game?

[gold cup abuser]

D'oh on the limp wristing part.....ty for spotting that.

Some guns can be like wimmen...ya pay em no attention they cheat on ya rofl.

any mechanical device will need a break in period to determine if the item is good to go or need to be recycled.

if you do a lot of pistol cleaning or shoot wolf ammo in a pistol or AR then give this trick a try...

cut off a cleaning rod and put a bore brush, or for an AR and their bolt carriers attach a chamber cleaning brush and chuck this in a drill press. either the full size one or the jig used for a hand drill.

cleans pistol chambers out fast and can be used for multiple cleanings of AR's.... old trick I did when I was a unit armorer and had to clean 20 or more M16's and their bolt carrier keys.

just set the drill on LOW and wear safety glasses and a shirt that you can live without..or a shop apron if you want to be fancy

[Jim1911]

. Get a Wolf 18 pound spring if all the other inspected items are clear.

I put an 18 lb spring in my SA and there was a break in period. The first two mags I had 2 FTEs. It might have been my fault for shooting 185s instead of 230s. All I feed it is 185s now. If my memory serves me correct, isn't it supposed to be 14.5?

I recommend an 18lb spring to anyone with a full sized 1911 but I wouldn't use it to solve a problem.

[gold cup abuser]

I put an 18 lb spring in my SA and there was a break in period. The first two mags I had 2 FTEs. It might have been my fault for shooting 185s instead of 230s. All I feed it is 185s now. If my memory serves me correct, isn't it supposed to be 14.5?

I recommend an 18lb spring to anyone with a full sized 1911 but I wouldn't use it to solve a problem.

The lighter spring is for low powered target loads. In the current crop of Gold Cups it comes with two springs one is 14 lb (?)and the other is 18. I don't recall the weight of the stock recoil spring.......

Outside of an extractor issue the recoil spring is the next thing to swap out, factoring out poor grip control.

Springfields are know for tight intial chambers and a good 200 round break in period is a good move.

[camper]

Thanks everyone. I'll definitely try the spring, it didn't seem as tight as other pistols I have but this is the only 1911 style I have experience with.

Where the bullet is stopping, is right before it enters the barrel and the slide becomes blocked and won't complete the forward movement. Pull back the slide and the unfired round ejects normally.

I don't *think* I'm limp-wristing, but I'm willing to say I may be. However my taurus 24/7 (also a .45) is a plastic gun and supposedly more sensitive to limp-wristing and that has always fired perfectly. I don't do anything different with it...the 1911 is much heavier and easier to keep steady, but maybe I concentrate with the taurus more because I know it's more prone to it.

I've taken it apart as completely as is recommeneded by a non-gunsmith, and nothing looks broken or worn. Like I said, the guy before me had it in a safe for 15-20 years and only test fired two or three rounds from it when he bought it new.

Once I get the spring replaced, I'll try again. I'm hoping that's all it is, as the ejector port looks fine from what I can see.

Appreciate all the adivce,

camper

[S&W 10mm]

Thanks everyone. I'll definitely try the spring, it didn't seem as tight as other pistols I have but this is the only 1911 style I have experience with.

Where the bullet is stopping, is right before it enters the barrel and the slide becomes blocked and won't complete the forward movement. Pull back the slide and the unfired round ejects normally.

I don't *think* I'm limp-wristing, but I'm willing to say I may be. However my taurus 24/7 (also a .45) is a plastic gun and supposedly more sensitive to limp-wristing and that has always fired perfectly. I don't do anything different with it...the 1911 is much heavier and easier to keep steady, but maybe I concentrate with the taurus more because I know it's more prone to it.

I've taken it apart as completely as is recommeneded by a non-gunsmith, and nothing looks broken or worn. Like I said, the guy before me had it in a safe for 15-20 years and only test fired two or three rounds from it when he bought it new.

Once I get the spring replaced, I'll try again. I'm hoping that's all it is, as the ejector port looks fine from what I can see.

Appreciate all the adivce,

camper

Sounds to me like its the feed ramp. I'll let others say what they think it is and to give advice on polishing the ramp if thats the problem, which thats what it sounds to me like.

[gold cup abuser]

re check that extractor before you break out the dremel tool to work on the feed ramp area.

sounds like the case is not going under the extractor as the slide is going into battery.

this article from the 1911 forums should help:

this is from 1911 tuner enjoy

3-Point Jam
Reliability in a defensive sidearm is paramount. Reliability comes first, and everything else is a distant second. No man-made machine is, or can be completely reliable over its useful life span. Sooner or later, there will be a malfunction or parts failure, but we can take steps to reduce the possibility of malfunctions with a little understanding of how the gun works, and a little attention to detail.
One malfunction in a thousand is a fluke. One in 500, and we start to get a little nervous about the gun. One in a hundred, and the pistol is virtually useless, except for range work...and even that gets to be a hassle.

Feed stoppages...Probably the most frequent issue... second only to extraction/ejection malfunctions...and most often these are a failure to go to full battery. Rather than go into the standard advice to adjust the extractor...polish the breechface...get good magazines... polish the ramp and throat...ad nauseum...I'll assume that the reader has already addressed these areas, and is at a loss to determine the cause of his woes. Most pistols these days come with the throat and ramp already done and usually well-executed. Many pistols have been ruined by over-zealous work in these areas. Unnecessary work.

Stem bind is usually the culprit in a failure to return to battery. Actually, that's misleading, since a little stem-bind is always present in the 1911. That's what slows the slide as it goes to battery and prevents damage to the lower barrel lug and slidestop crosspin, and gives the round time to get under the extractor. Excessive stem bind is more accurate...or what is technically known as the "Three-Point Jam"

Three points...binding between the breechface, the barrel throat, and the underside of the barrel chamber. Forget what you've heard about the overall length of the round for a minute. If the 1911 is correctly set-up, it's more forgiving of cartridge length variation than many would have you believe.

Consider the barrel link. If the link is correctly fitted to a correctly shaped and in-spec lower lug, there probably won't be a three-point jam. Why?

As the cartridge strips from the magazine and strikes the barrel throat, it pushes the barrel forward. Due to the tilting-barrel design, when the barrel moves forward...it also moves upward. If the barrel is correctly fitted, this upward movement is provided by the front radius of the barrel being cammed up by the slidestop pin, and the rise is gradual.

Want to feel your pistol feed more smoothly than you ever imagined that it could? Load 3 or 4 rounds in a magazine...lock the slide to the rear... push the muzzle against the edge of a table, and ride the slide forward... not in slow-motion...but not at full speed either. You won't feel a bump... no hesitation...no stem bind as the round chambers. None.

Tripp Research has attempted to address this issue by designing a magazine that presents the cartridge at a lower angle as it enters the barrel throat. While this approach will often work...it's a band-aid that masks the true nature of the problem...and it doesn't always work.

Now, consider the incorrectly dimensioned lower lug. If the link is the correct length for vertical lockup, where the lower lug and slidestop pin bear the load of the vertical lock...but the link is long enough to hold the pin away from the front radius, you have the makings of a 3-point jam.

The condition is known as "Riding the Link". When the barrel rides the link around the lower lug's radius, it causes the barrel to rise early in relation to the slide's position...when the round is just entering the throat. In addition to rising too soon, it moves upward too abruptly, which puts the slide and cartridge even further behind in its approach to battery. Bang! A three point jam has just taken place. (Many factory-built pistols these days have this condition.) When you get a pistol that seems to feed everything that you put in it without a glitch...look at the link to see why.

Think back to your childhood, when you'd find a suitable stick to play "Pole Vault" with. Remember how the dynamics changed the higher you placed your hands on the pole? There was a point that you wouldn't be able to vault, no matter how fast you ran. Same principle.

Okay...You've plunked down your long green for a factory pistol that doesn't have a correctly dimensioned lug...The barrel is riding the link, and your pistol produces a return to battery stoppage often enough to destroy your confidence in it. You don't have the money for a gunsmith to refit the lug or another barrel...and you either can't afford or justify buying another pistol on the chance that this one will be "right". What to do?

Often the advice is to install a heavier recoil spring in hopes of using enough force to overcome the jam...This is not only the wrong approach, it usually doesn't completely eliminate the stoppage...It just makes it less frequent...at least until the recoil spring starts to get tired. You still have a nagging doubt that the gun will perform in an emergency. The ramp and throat have already been tended to.

There are a couple of approaches that will usually work. If the barrel is standing on the link in vertical lock, you can try a shorter link. You're limited to about .003 inch shorter here. If the shorter link will make it around the front radius without getting into a bind, you can go with that and likely cure the problem. A shorter link will have the effect of unlocking the barrel a little earlier...which can possibly be an extraction issue if it unlocks TOO early..while the chamber pressures still have the case expanded, but this will probably happen only if the unlock timing is right on the line anyway.

If the barrel is correctly locking via the bottom of the lug and the slidestop pin...and the lower lug is dimensioned so that the link is holding the pin away from tha frontt radius, you can't use a shorter link unless you modify the bottom of the lug...which will undermine your vertical lockup.

You can, however, modify the link a little by elongating the slidestop pin hole at the top to get the barrel off the link and onto the lug where it belongs. The barrel rise will be delayed, so that the slide will be a little further forward and the round a little deeper into the chamber...and at a shallower angle. The unlocking and linkdown timing will be unchanged, since the BOTTOM of the link's hole determines where and when the barrel will begin to unlock...and your stem bind will be substantially reduced.

On this modification, you are limited to about .005 to .006 inch of elongation, and even if it doesn't put the radius on the crosspin, it will put it much closer...relatively speaking. The probability of correcting the three-point jam with this is high...about 95%. If the lug rides on the pin, the chances of success are even higher. Elongating the hole even as little as .002 inch will usually produce a dramatic difference...so take it a little at a time. No more than necessary. This will make it a trial and error exercise.

To do this, I use a Dremel and a 3/16ths chain saw sharpening stone. The stone is slightly smaller in diameter than the slidestop pin, so you'll need to use a slight "rocking" motion to make the radius of the hole the same size as the pin. Otherwise, the pin and link will bind. You'll also have to be careful to keep the stone square to the link as you cut. If the hole isn't straight and true, the barrel will still ride the link, and possibly cause a side-load and a bind in that direction.

Use light pressure, so that instead of cutting, you are actually polishing the material and removing very little at a time. Be careful not to enlarge the hole farther than the sizing of the bottom half where the slidestop pin will fit into. Use a scrape to deburr the sides of the hole, paying attention to the modified area in the top. The tip of a good pocketknife will do. Measure the size of the hole with a dial caliper, and re-measure it often as you go. Test the feeding at .002 inch intervals, and stop when you fix the problem. A little is good...A lot ain't necessarily gooder.

[S&W 10mm]

re check that extractor before you break out the dremel tool to work on the feed ramp area.

sounds like the case is not going under the extractor as the slide is going into battery.

this article from the 1911 forums should help:

this is from 1911 tuner enjoy

3-Point Jam
Reliability in a defensive sidearm is paramount. Reliability comes first, and everything else is a distant second. No man-made machine is, or can be completely reliable over its useful life span. Sooner or later, there will be a malfunction or parts failure, but we can take steps to reduce the possibility of malfunctions with a little understanding of how the gun works, and a little attention to detail.
One malfunction in a thousand is a fluke. One in 500, and we start to get a little nervous about the gun. One in a hundred, and the pistol is virtually useless, except for range work...and even that gets to be a hassle.

Feed stoppages...Probably the most frequent issue... second only to extraction/ejection malfunctions...and most often these are a failure to go to full battery. Rather than go into the standard advice to adjust the extractor...polish the breechface...get good magazines... polish the ramp and throat...ad nauseum...I'll assume that the reader has already addressed these areas, and is at a loss to determine the cause of his woes. Most pistols these days come with the throat and ramp already done and usually well-executed. Many pistols have been ruined by over-zealous work in these areas. Unnecessary work.

Stem bind is usually the culprit in a failure to return to battery. Actually, that's misleading, since a little stem-bind is always present in the 1911. That's what slows the slide as it goes to battery and prevents damage to the lower barrel lug and slidestop crosspin, and gives the round time to get under the extractor. Excessive stem bind is more accurate...or what is technically known as the "Three-Point Jam"

Three points...binding between the breechface, the barrel throat, and the underside of the barrel chamber. Forget what you've heard about the overall length of the round for a minute. If the 1911 is correctly set-up, it's more forgiving of cartridge length variation than many would have you believe.

Consider the barrel link. If the link is correctly fitted to a correctly shaped and in-spec lower lug, there probably won't be a three-point jam. Why?

As the cartridge strips from the magazine and strikes the barrel throat, it pushes the barrel forward. Due to the tilting-barrel design, when the barrel moves forward...it also moves upward. If the barrel is correctly fitted, this upward movement is provided by the front radius of the barrel being cammed up by the slidestop pin, and the rise is gradual.

Want to feel your pistol feed more smoothly than you ever imagined that it could? Load 3 or 4 rounds in a magazine...lock the slide to the rear... push the muzzle against the edge of a table, and ride the slide forward... not in slow-motion...but not at full speed either. You won't feel a bump... no hesitation...no stem bind as the round chambers. None.

Tripp Research has attempted to address this issue by designing a magazine that presents the cartridge at a lower angle as it enters the barrel throat. While this approach will often work...it's a band-aid that masks the true nature of the problem...and it doesn't always work.

Now, consider the incorrectly dimensioned lower lug. If the link is the correct length for vertical lockup, where the lower lug and slidestop pin bear the load of the vertical lock...but the link is long enough to hold the pin away from the front radius, you have the makings of a 3-point jam.

The condition is known as "Riding the Link". When the barrel rides the link around the lower lug's radius, it causes the barrel to rise early in relation to the slide's position...when the round is just entering the throat. In addition to rising too soon, it moves upward too abruptly, which puts the slide and cartridge even further behind in its approach to battery. Bang! A three point jam has just taken place. (Many factory-built pistols these days have this condition.) When you get a pistol that seems to feed everything that you put in it without a glitch...look at the link to see why.

Think back to your childhood, when you'd find a suitable stick to play "Pole Vault" with. Remember how the dynamics changed the higher you placed your hands on the pole? There was a point that you wouldn't be able to vault, no matter how fast you ran. Same principle.

Okay...You've plunked down your long green for a factory pistol that doesn't have a correctly dimensioned lug...The barrel is riding the link, and your pistol produces a return to battery stoppage often enough to destroy your confidence in it. You don't have the money for a gunsmith to refit the lug or another barrel...and you either can't afford or justify buying another pistol on the chance that this one will be "right". What to do?

Often the advice is to install a heavier recoil spring in hopes of using enough force to overcome the jam...This is not only the wrong approach, it usually doesn't completely eliminate the stoppage...It just makes it less frequent...at least until the recoil spring starts to get tired. You still have a nagging doubt that the gun will perform in an emergency. The ramp and throat have already been tended to.

There are a couple of approaches that will usually work. If the barrel is standing on the link in vertical lock, you can try a shorter link. You're limited to about .003 inch shorter here. If the shorter link will make it around the front radius without getting into a bind, you can go with that and likely cure the problem. A shorter link will have the effect of unlocking the barrel a little earlier...which can possibly be an extraction issue if it unlocks TOO early..while the chamber pressures still have the case expanded, but this will probably happen only if the unlock timing is right on the line anyway.

If the barrel is correctly locking via the bottom of the lug and the slidestop pin...and the lower lug is dimensioned so that the link is holding the pin away from tha frontt radius, you can't use a shorter link unless you modify the bottom of the lug...which will undermine your vertical lockup.

You can, however, modify the link a little by elongating the slidestop pin hole at the top to get the barrel off the link and onto the lug where it belongs. The barrel rise will be delayed, so that the slide will be a little further forward and the round a little deeper into the chamber...and at a shallower angle. The unlocking and linkdown timing will be unchanged, since the BOTTOM of the link's hole determines where and when the barrel will begin to unlock...and your stem bind will be substantially reduced.

On this modification, you are limited to about .005 to .006 inch of elongation, and even if it doesn't put the radius on the crosspin, it will put it much closer...relatively speaking. The probability of correcting the three-point jam with this is high...about 95%. If the lug rides on the pin, the chances of success are even higher. Elongating the hole even as little as .002 inch will usually produce a dramatic difference...so take it a little at a time. No more than necessary. This will make it a trial and error exercise.

To do this, I use a Dremel and a 3/16ths chain saw sharpening stone. The stone is slightly smaller in diameter than the slidestop pin, so you'll need to use a slight "rocking" motion to make the radius of the hole the same size as the pin. Otherwise, the pin and link will bind. You'll also have to be careful to keep the stone square to the link as you cut. If the hole isn't straight and true, the barrel will still ride the link, and possibly cause a side-load and a bind in that direction.

Use light pressure, so that instead of cutting, you are actually polishing the material and removing very little at a time. Be careful not to enlarge the hole farther than the sizing of the bottom half where the slidestop pin will fit into. Use a scrape to deburr the sides of the hole, paying attention to the modified area in the top. The tip of a good pocketknife will do. Measure the size of the hole with a dial caliper, and re-measure it often as you go. Test the feeding at .002 inch intervals, and stop when you fix the problem. A little is good...A lot ain't necessarily gooder.

Damn dude, thats one long ass post right there!