Question: When can a LEO search your vehicle W/No Consent?

[larry0071]

Me, my Wife, and my Father are argueing over this.

I say that a LEO that pulls you over for a moving violation while you are legally carrying your pistol can not use that as a means to desire to remove you from the car/truck and search it.

My father feels that if the officer looks into your car/truck and sees a lunch box, paper bag, or anything not built into the car... he can suspect it is filled with drugs and illegal weapons and maybe the ring fingers of 5 year old girls.... so based on his suspicion, he is free to search away.

I say he would need to see something that was true suspect, and call in for a verbal warrant if in fact you have not concented to the search.

Dad says... "Your an idiot son, and you know not a damn thing. He can see whatever he wants to see in there and once he feels that what he saw could be an illegal item, or hiding an illegal item.... it is game on!"

I have no clue where you guys find the laws for this, but I wanted some one to copy and paste the true PA legal guide or code refering to a situation like this.

I say they need a warrant if I am refusing to grant them permission....short of me having a leg of 10 year old on the back seat.... or a 3 lb sandwich baggy of cocain.... they should not be able to search my property just cause they want to find out what kind of porn I hide under the truck seat!

[knight0334]

Plain view is the key thing. They can look through the windows without a warrant for sure. If they see something in plain view that is definitely illegal or creates probably cause - things change.

[forceinPA]

Search incident to arrest. Or only what a prudent person can reach too in the car if there is P.C to do so.

[larry0071]

So.....does your lunch box full of lunch provide PC?

Does your lunchbox full of fresh pot (closed lunch box) provide PC?

I dont know of anyone that has a car/truck that does not have anything at all in it. So, anything a LEO see's can be construed (with some creative immagination) as potentially being or masking something that is or could be illegal. Hell, I saw a wallet in your back pocket... I suspect there is 400 hits of acid folded up in there! PC baby... drop and spread em, we are searching onward!

That is what I'm trying to figiure out... Is there no legal code that has a guide line for when a LEO can and can not search you. Just saying that it requires PC....well that is 100% subjective. Every person can have an internal threshold for what might be construed to be potential cantraband. Very subjective.

Or... maybe what I just said is true. Maybe it is that subjective, and they do not need a warrant or approval from a Chief....so maybe it is completely random up until you go to court to fight about it?

[knight0334]

So.....does your lunch box full of lunch provide PC?

Does your lunchbox full of fresh pot (closed lunch box) provide PC?

I dont know of anyone that has a car/truck that does not have anything at all in it. So, anything a LEO see's can be construed (with some creative immagination) as potentially being or masking something that is or could be illegal. Hell, I saw a wallet in your back pocket... I suspect there is 400 hits of acid folded up in there! PC baby... drop and spread em, we are searching onward!

That is what I'm trying to figiure out... Is there no legal code that has a guide line for when a LEO can and can not search you. Just saying that it requires PC....well that is 100% subjective. Every person can have an internal threshold for what might be construed to be potential cantraband. Very subjective.

Or... maybe what I just said is true. Maybe it is that subjective, and they do not need a warrant or approval from a Chief....so maybe it is completely random up until you go to court to fight about it?

Not everything can launch PC. A simple lunch box is quite easily your kid's.. A strong odor of reefer coming from within the car could easily be probable cause. There has to be some substantial evidence something "isn't right".

If he arrests you for something legit, good chances your vehicle can and will be searched, if not for more evidence, but for inventory prior to impounding it.

The vast majority of LEO's will be on the lookout for contraband or evidence, but wont violate your rights. There is of course the few out there that will cross the line.

[Kaos]

By your Father's logic - they could see the trunk and go


"there could be DEAD PEOPLE IN THERE OMG"

[larry0071]

So am I too understand that only in the case that you were being placed under arrest can they search your property without concent?

Like... doing a California-stop-sign....or doing 65 in a 55.... your not getting arrested for these things. Your getting a paper ticket and paying some dumb fine. So for this, your brown paper bag on tha back seat can not be search ?

When can the brown paper bad and the 1/4 full black plastic trash bag be looked at by demand of the LEO? Maybe it is July 2nd... and he thinks that paper bad might have fireworks that his kids would enjoy more than you...

I had that done to me when I was 17. It was 20 years ago. Long gone.

[pacodelahoya]

PROBABLE CAUSE - A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. U.S. v. Puerta, 982 F.2d 1297, 1300 (9th Cir. 1992). In terms of seizure of items, probable cause merely requires that the facts available to the officer warrants a "man of reasonable caution" to conclude that certain items may be contraband or stolen property or useful as evidence of a crime. U.S. v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir. 1991), cert. Denied, 112 S. Ct. 401 (1992).

It is undisputed that the Fourth Amendment, applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibits an officer from making an arrest without probable cause. McKenzie v. Lamb, 738 F.2d 1005, 1007 (9th Cir. 1984). Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." United States v. Hoyos, 892 F.2d 1387, 1392 (9th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 489 U.S. 825 (1990) (citing United States v. Greene, 783 F.2d 1364, 1367 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1185 (1986)).

When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

In an action, then, for a malicious prosecution, the plaintiff is bound to show total absence of probable cause, whether the original proceedings were civil or criminal.
--b--THE 'LECTRIC

I would say no, according to the definition above, a prudent man would not consider a lunchbox a tool of crime, nor without further evidence, consider it stolen.

[pacodelahoya]

So am I too understand that only in the case that you were being placed under arrest can they search your property without concent?

"They" can do whatever they want. It is up to you to fight it in court.

Me? I'm a prick, I don't even talk to the police when I get pulled over. No, it's not that often, like twice in 5 years.

I just hand em my papers and answer yes or no. Always get the ticket, but they don't hassle me either. I think they can tell when people know their rights, and they don't mess with em too much.

I can't even watch the show cops, my blood pressure skyrockets as I'm yelling at the white boy driving through the hood"don't answer where you are going or what you are doing!!! It's none of their bees wax!"

[kevco]

My understanding of it, would be that they must ASK you if they can search your vehicle. At that point, I would ask if I was under arrest, and what the charges were. If I was NOT under arrest, I would very politely say no, you may not search my vehicle without a warrant. Not that I'd be hiding anything, it's just the principle of the ordeal, not to mention the possibility of "planting" evidence! (A corrupt officer would NEVER do that, would they?)

BTW, I in no way intend to be bashing police officers, I know that most are honest.