Anyone interested in forming/buying Hunting Camp

[T Durdin]

Hey PAFOA People,

Do any of y’all know about real estate, forming an association, like a hunting camp?

A couple years back we lost our family camp. It was due to a new fellow buying the land the camp was on. It had been in our family nearly 80 years, my granddad leased the rights to hunt there year round for various game seasons from this doctor friend of his. Over six previous changes of ownership, their handshake deal was always honored. Until this fellow said it wasn't legal, he didn't have to and we can't make him. He wanted the camp for himself; Our verbal deal lease was to expire in 2011, if it'd been me, I'd have said deer hunt until then that's all. What a prick.

For the last 5 or 6 years I’ve been searching on the net for info about different parcels of land. I would like to get into something like that, but it’s a little out of the range for me to do so myself. It’s been my observation in the last 3 years or so the larger plots are being bought up and sold off in housing lots.

What I’d like to do is form a group to buy into a hunting camp or land plot. My bro and cousin have tentatively said they’d be interested depending on location, number of members and such. I belong to the Viking Club here in York, I’m sure I could get some guys from there interested.

I think the initial buy in should be $1000- $3000 per guy, with the monthly payment per guy between $40-85. I think most guys from different walks of life could afford that. I think there should be 6-15 members. I have seen affordable parcels this many could hunt without bumping heads.

Here are some examples:::::::

50 acres at $37,000 – with fees and such let’s say $40,000 -

down payment (6 guy) (10guy) (15 guy)
20% - $1233 - $740 - $494

assume: 20 YR mort. At 8.5% + $700 taxes and upkeep per year (probably much less)
{341 $/mo} - $58 - $34.10 - $22.73…{pocket change}
…………………………………………………………………

73 acres at $85,000 – with fees and such let’s say $89,000 -

down payment (6) (10) (15)
20% {17,800} - $2967 - $1780 - $1187

assume: 20 YR mort. At 8.5% + $900 taxes and upkeep per year (probably less)
{693 $/mo} - $115.50 - $69.30 - $46.20

………………………………………………………………….
128 acres at $134,500 - with fees and such let’s say $144,500 –

down payment (6) (10) (15)
20% {28,900} - $4816 - $2890 - $1926

assume: 20 YR mort. At 8.5% + $1200 taxes and upkeep per year
{1104 $/mo} - $184 - $110.40 - $73.60

OR assume: 30 YR mort. At 8.5% + $1200 taxes and upkeep per year
{989 $/mo} - $164 - $98.90 - $65.93
…………………………………………………………….

I think the last one is a little more than I’d have liked for 6 people, but think what this could be worth in 10 years. For the 20 year option- total of mort. and int. payments at end is $240,768 + $24,000 tax and upkeep EST $264,768. If the property appreciated at just 4% per year it would then be valued at least $283,400 and probably would be worth well more.

I also thought maybe if the people agreed, depending on usage, selling some junior memberships for hunting. For example say there are 10 full members, and some don’t hunt, are only in for investment or don’t go often enough; Sell some junior memberships to raise some additional funds. Also, if the place didn’t have a stream, add an artificial pond and stock it with fish.

I don’t know, but 50 - 100 acres to hunt, camp, shoot and maybe fish sounds pretty good to me.

Just a thought anyway, seems like these big cheap plots are getting harder to find, and interest rates will probably never be lower.

[LorDiego01]

I think this is a great idea. But Im not sure I'd jump on a 20year mortgage with some random people from the interwebs. Still, intresting to see the some basic numbers and realize this is more than doable.

[T Durdin]

Obviously part of the process would be to explore who's able to do this, and weed out the rest. Think about years ago when some guys were forming camps, did they really know their friends co-worker they went in with? Probably not.

[T Durdin]

Lordiego, you’re right, who knows about random people from the inner’net. They may secretly be transgendered liberal alien-abductee pedophile mason Geraldo-fans from West Hollywood.

I think the bottom line is to get some initial feeling as to level of interest. I can say honestly I know of 3 persons interested in buying a hunting camp.

The parties would have to get together and develop the criteria for moving forward. From that point make a determination of the qualifications for members.

And considering the fact that we used to travel about 5 hours to our old camp, I’m open as far as location in the region.

I had been trying to reserve some cash for a new shootin’ iron and 4 wheeler, but could forgo those for the time being.

You raise a point about going into the deal for 20 years. That may well be too long. Let’s say I have $3000, I could easily borrow 3k more. If 10 guys put in total $60k there would be no need for a 20-year mortgage, 10 would do it.

That would make the deal look like- - -
50 acres at $37,000 – with fees and such let’s say $40,000 – Paid For and then some
…………………………………………………………………….
73 acres at $85,000 – with fees and such let’s say $89,000 -

down payment (10) (15)
{60,000} - $6000 - $4000

assume: 10 YR mort. At 8.5% + $900 taxes and upkeep per year (probably less)
{475 $/mo} - $47.50 - $31.67 {{<--Our cable bill is more than that per mo.}}
………………………………………………………………….
128 acres at $134,500 - with fees and such let’s say $144,500 –

down payment (10) (15)
{60,000} - $6000 - $4000

assume: 10 YR mort. At 8.5% + $1200 taxes and upkeep per year
{1147 $/mo} - $114.70 - $76.47 {{<--Still very do-able}}
.................................................. ..............

And these are just examples. I also saw 124 acres for $118,000 listed as having a 3 man tree stand and pond. So there are sites out there.

[1911shooter]

hell yeah that sounds like a great idea, i would be up for it and it would be a great opertunity for those with kids to learn to hunt without all the worry of public land and some of the nimrods that hunt there. let me know if you are serious about this. i know my dad and i would be willing to and able to do it.

[T Durdin]

1911shooter,

I'm 100% serious on that. My girlfriend is good with it, our jeep is almost paid off. Other than our current mortgage, that's my only major expense. I think this would be not only a place to hunt, but a good investment as well.

[PA Rifleman]

Sorry to hear of your recent loss. If it's any comfort, it happened to a family friend much in the same way. In his case, it was his home which was also an antique farmhouse. Everything was sealed with a handshake. I advised him that when the owner passed on, he would be out on the street. Unfortunatley, he didn't believe me until it actually happened.

Since you just got you first lesson on civil law, perhaps you'll consider some type of framework for this ad hoc partnership, even if just a simple set of by laws. Some scenarios to consider:

• One member drops out. Who picks up the tab? And will they have equity?
• One member is neater or sloppier than another, and complains about always cleaning up after the messier one. How will that be handled?
• A visitor gets hurt, now a lawsuit becomes a possiblity. Is there insurance & representation?
• The EPA cites your group for high lead content in a target berm. Who pays? The most frequent shooters?
• Suppose the grounds need maintenance. The bill's divided evenly, but several members objuect-they haven't used the facility in years, thus they feel they aren't liable.

Just food for thought.

[T Durdin]

Thanks Pa Rifleman,

You raise a number of very good points, which would have to voted on by the membership of such an organization.

I have talked to some older fellows, who did this in the past. From what I have gathered this is how the process would advance.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
I would have to come across 20 or so people interested in the idea. So far, myself included, I have 5 maybes.

These folks would have to meet and discus exactly what's involved. They'd have to agree upon a set of bylaws for the organization. Qualifications for membership would have to be established, i.e. no felons, must have suitable financial resources, etc.

A Board of Directors would have to be elected.

With some guidelines established, a parcel would be surveyed and determined to be suitable and voted on.

At that stage we'd have to get a lawyer to draw up formal papers for the association.

After that everyone would put their buy in money in to an account for the association; the BOD would buy the property out right, or pay money down and take a mortgage for the balance. What ever the (mortgage+taxes+any insurance) monthly would be, then divide by number of members.

Possibly require x number of payments be in association account ahead. Such as 3 months worth.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I have a sort of proposed guide for bylaws, I'll put that in this thread. It's really just a rough sketch, It would all have to be voted and agreed upon.

If there's any lawyers in the forum, I could sure use some pointers.

[T Durdin]

The {to be determined later} Hunting Lodge, Association


Proposed guide for makin’ bylaws/rules:

I.) Preface/Preamble/Mission Statement.
Form a hunting lodge assoc. to provide members and others with a place to hunt and shoot, and promote shooting sports. Defend the US 2nd Amend., PA 21st Amend..

II.) Formation of Board of Directors and Write Bylaws
To develop qualifications for memberships, develop bylaws, adopt rules of order, rules for disbarment from membership.
1- Directors. Who, how many, length of term.
Pres., V-Pres., SGT -Arms, Chaplain, Secretary (?)
2- What they can and can’t do.
3- Impeachment for improper activity.
4- Bylaws. What will they be/ topics covered. Rules for changing bylaws.
5- Rules of Order for proceedings, reports to membership, minutes. Maybe use Robert’s rules of order.
6- Qualification for membership. Will this Idiot shoot any of us? Can he pay the buy in, hold a job, while paying fees 10 years?
7- Levels of membership. Full charter. Junior member. Etc ?

III.) Association Properties Defined.
Survey and purchase lands for the association to the satisfaction of the membership. After purchase, description of properties will go here.
1- Buy us some land.
2- Possibly put small building, old bus or camper on land.

IV.) Rules for use of Assoc. Props.
{{No Pay, No Play. No Tickee, No Laundry.}}
Persons must be paid up, near current to use the Assoc. properties.
Non-members (trespassers, not your cousin Earl) to be expelled from premises if not in supervision of member.

V.) Expulsion Proceeding.
Develop rules for expelling members
1- Falling arrears/payments to certain extent, i.e. 1 year in arrears=expelled
2- Causing catastrophic damage to Assoc. property, catastrophic injury to member or member guest
3- Conviction of a Felony crime, especially crime of violence.

VI.) Franchising/Expansion.
Should the association be so effective it may purchase additional property and sell membership equal/greater to expenditure of original members, but only in best interest of original membership.

VII.) Dissolution of Association
1- Rules for partial or complete dissolution.
2- Amicable Split rule. Agreement to dissolve and divide.
3- Non-amicable Split Rule. Association does not agree to split. Buy out of aggrieved party{party wanting to divide}. Penalty? Fair market v. –25%?

[91xlt]

sounds interesting, I will be watching this thread.