OC and Police Interaction

[ksig1869]

I have been reading about Open Carry and while I probably won't ever do it I find it interesting that we have the right to do so. But Just a quick question/opinion about situation that was brought up by Ed in Pa in a different thread about an interaction with a constable.

While OC is legal can police officers ask for a LTCF or retain you to verify that you are allowed to possess a firearm? Is it legal or would it be considered unlawful search and seizure? It seems that OC is just making yourself a target to people who don't know or understand the law clear enough.

I know that it would seem unlikely that criminals would make themselves a target like that but there are some who may know the law and use it against LEOs.

What do you guys think?

[angus]

There are many LEO's who know the law and understand that OC is legal in PA. There seem to also be a lot who do not know the law and do everything from exceeding the scope of Terry stops to illegal seizure of weapons to wrongful arrests. There is a lot of discussion out there on this topic. Here are a few threads to look over.



http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...lls-ocing.html



http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...pen-carry.html

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...lls-ocing.html

[ksig1869]

ive read alot of the threads but my question is are they allowed to questin whether or not you are authorized to carry a gun period. whether you open carry or not can police or constables for that matter detain you/ check on your background to make sure that you arent illegally in possession of a firearm not to check up whether OC is legal or not.

[knight0334]

Where is the probably cause to address your unlawful possession? Open carry is a legal act, he has no authority to even ask to speak to you.

[markheck1]

That all depends on why you are interacting with the Officer. If stopped just for open carrying no, a verbal ID is all that you are required to give. If stopped upon suspicion of doing something with the weapon in question, well...that's different.

NOW IANAL, nor am I telling you what you should do, but that is what is required by law for you to do.

[rmodel65]

jl vs Florida (2000)

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
FLORIDA v. J. L.
CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA
No. 98—1993. Argued February 29, 2000–Decided March 28, 2000

After an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun, officers went to the bus stop and saw three black males, one of whom, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Apart from the tip, the officers had no reason to suspect any of the three of illegal conduct. The officers did not see a firearm or observe any unusual movements. One of the officers frisked J. L. and seized a gun from his pocket. J. L., who was then almost 16, was charged under state law with carrying a concealed firearm without a license and possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. The trial court granted his motion to suppress the gun as the fruit of an unlawful search. The intermediate appellate court reversed, but the Supreme Court of Florida quashed that decision and held the search invalid under the Fourth Amendment.

Held: An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person. An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30. Here, the officers’ suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from their own observations but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant’s knowledge or credibility. See Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 327. The contentions of Florida and the United States as amicus that the tip was reliable because it accurately described J. L.’s visible attributes misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a “firearm exception,” under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. The facts of this case do not require the Court to speculate about the circumstances under which the danger alleged in an anonymous tip might be so great–e.g., a report of a person carrying a bomb–as to justify a search even without a showing of reliability.

727 So. 2d 204, affirmed.

[jerkin]

ive read alot of the threads but my question is are they allowed to questin whether or not you are authorized to carry a gun period. whether you open carry or not can police or constables for that matter detain you/ check on your background to make sure that you arent illegally in possession of a firearm not to check up whether OC is legal or not.

I think you are looking at it wrong, you are not "authorized" to carry a weapon but you can be prohibited from doing so. LEO can do whatever they want but they can also be sued for civil rights violations.

[Statkowski]

Posted by markheck1
That all depends on why you are interacting with the Officer. If stopped just for open carrying no, a verbal ID is all that you are required to give. If stopped upon suspicion of doing something with the weapon in question, well...that's different.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Absent any reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of criminal activity (and open carry in and of itself does not constitute such), a police officer has no authority to stop you just for open carrying. Unless the police officer has RAS, you are under no obligation to furnish even a verbal ID.

If stopped for RAS, you are only obligated to furnish a verbal ID. As for anything else following, "You have the right to remain silent." Do so.

Posted by ksg1869
While OC is legal can police officers ask for a LTCF or retain you to verify that you are allowed to possess a firearm?

OC does not require an LTCF. Since it does not, the officer can ask, but you can say, "No, thank you. An LTCF is not required for open carry." Absent any RAS that you're not allowed to possess a firearm, the officer can ask, but he can't legally detain you.

Is it legal or would it be considered unlawful search and seizure?

It would be an unlawful search and/or seizure.

It seems that OC is just making yourself a target to people who don't know or understand the law clear enough.

Then, kind Sir, we educate them on what the law is.

[PennsyPlinker]

You need to frame your question differently. A police officer can question you about anything. The real question is, what are you obligated to answer? As I mentioned in the other thread, you need to have answers ready for specific situations. That way you have a much smaller chance of becoming flustered or overwhelmed by the LEO. If you are on foot, you have no obligation to show your ID. If you are OC, you have no obligation to show a LTCF. I have been asked once by a police officer to identify myself, which I did verbally. He knew enough of the law to not ask for my ID. A group of constables and I were talking at another time, and I informed them that I did not have to give anyone my ID, since while they might assume I had arrived in a vehicle, no one had actually seen me in said vehicle. Not only did they agree, it was actually good for a laugh all around. But they were a friendly group from the outset.

So, if a cop walks up to you on foot and asks you for ID, look him right in the eye and give him your name and address, very matter of fact. If he asks, or demands for more, tell him you have just identified yourself in accordance with the law.

Now, what do I have ready for the belligerent cop? If he insists on written ID while I am on foot, I will respond that he is welcome to follow me back to my truck, and once I am installed in the driver's seat, he can ask again and I will give it to him. If he gets real nasty, I might have to ad lib some, but he will be sure to understand that anything he compels me to do is going to come back and bite him later on.

[markheck1]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Absent any reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of criminal activity (and open carry in and of itself does not constitute such), a police officer has no authority to stop you just for open carrying. Unless the police officer has RAS, you are under no obligation to furnish even a verbal ID.

If stopped for RAS, you are only obligated to furnish a verbal ID. As for anything else following, "You have the right to remain silent." Do so.
OC does not require an LTCF. Since it does not, the officer can ask, but you can say, "No, thank you. An LTCF is not required for open carry." Absent any RAS that you're not allowed to possess a firearm, the officer can ask, but he can't legally detain you.

Hmmm.....interesting..I stand Corrected...Thanks!