Remington SPS Varmint v. Tactical

[Slick17]

I know this has been talked ablout before but I am still unsure. The facts that I have so far are:

Varmint: Has the 1:12 twist rate.
Tactical: Has the 1:10 twist rate.

Varmint: Barrel length is 26"
Tactical: Barrel length is 20"

Varmint: Has a shity stock that isn't free floating.
Tactical: Ok stock (not a HS) that is free floating w/out a bipod.

Varmint: SniperCentral's review said .75 MOA out of the box (I know that it also depends on shooter as well)
Tactical: SniperCentral's review said .50 MOA

So I guess really the only thing that is holding me back is that I like a longer barrel with the 1:10 twist rate. Either way I am planning on changing out the stock. I've heard of people buying the varmint b/c they know there changing the stock so you save a little money.

So really I'm looking for the thoughts of people that have one or the other. Thnanks guys.

[Tomcat088]

OK, I have some quick questions for you. What do you intend to use this rifle for (hunting, range, pickup gun, etc), and at what distances are we talking here? Are you going to be hand loading, or using factory ammunition? Do you want to shoot the ligher bullets, or stuff heavier than like the 168 Sierra Match King? Do you want to shoot something like the 180 grainers, or heavier? I'm guessing that you're talking about getting this rifle in .308 is that correct? I don't want to assume.

It looks like you've done quite a bit of homework so far because your info is spot on so far. With the 1:12 twist, you should be able to stabilize bullets all the way up to 180 grains, and the twist will be correct for the light bullets like the 155's. Realize that bullet stability is a result of alot of things, including air density, velocity of the bullet, altitude, etc. If you search around here on bullet stability, you'll find some pretty long posts. Either way, you need to decide what the heaviest bullet you'll consistently be shooting will be. Out of a .308, with a 1:10 twist, if you were reloading and pushing the bullets a bit hot, you could actually over stabilize the lighter bullets, especially things lighter than the 155 grainers. This isn't a problem if you're going to be shooting at closer distances, but if you wanted to shoot long distance with a bullet that is over stabilized, it can cause some "complications". When a bullet is over stabilized it doesn't nose over correctly at the peak of the trajectory, so it begins to fly nose up. When this happens it creates a slight amount of lift on the bullet, because of the differences in pressure on the top and bottom of the bullet. This makes the bullet begin to hit high and right, of where your dope tells you that it "should be". It's not something to freak out about, and might not occur if you're not pushing loads hot, but it's something to be aware of for the 1:10 twist. The 1:10 twist would stabilize the heavier bullets like the 190-210 grainers, although if you're not reloading, you won't see many/if any factory loadings with these type of bullets.

Another thing that you should seriously consider is, HONESTLY and REALISTICALLY, how far are you going to shoot this rifle consistently? Lots of people have illusions of easily shooting their rifle to 800 or 1,000 yards, and it's not easy or cheap, it takes lots of practice at those distances. IF you honestly want to take this rifle 800 yards, or further, and you're NOT handloading; you'll have a bit of trouble taking the 20" barrel that far. You're already going to need 20 MOA scope bases, and a scope that has quite a bit of travel, and/or mildots in order to make that distance. If you're handloading, it's not as much of a problem and you can get the 20" barrel to 1,000 yards. Do you HONESTLY realize how long a 26" barrel is? There is quite a large difference in how a 26" barrel rifle handles from a 20" barrel. You will get SOME extra velocity out of the 26" barrel over the 20" barrel, but this doesn't mean that it will necessarily be more accurate; and it will be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to handle. I have a 26" barrel on the rifle I just built, and it's LONG, lol, it barely fits in alot of gun cases. If you don't want to take this rifle consistently to long ranges (500 yards, or more), then you're not gonna see really any measurable benfits with the 26" barrel, but you WILL see the pain of handling a 26" long rifle.

In terms of stocks, you got it right, the tactical has a more rigid stock than the varminter, but it's still just "ok". You also have to realize that many of the people that will say this about that stock, end up going with stocks that cost over $200 just to replace (sometimes way more) , and they have them pillar and/or glass bedded (more money). If this is going to be a casual shooter, the tactical stock will probably be fine even with a bipod. The varmint stocks will sometimes flex and touch the barrel when you load them up with a bipod; although I have heard of quite a few that still shoot while on the bipod, but they have different points of impact from when the bipod is off (due to the barrel touching the stock). This can hurt consistency though, so it's something that you have to weigh. The varmint is cheaper, but if you're going to just replace the stock, you need to weigh the costs.

With good ammunition, both of these rifles will probably outshoot you for a while if you're not already a fairly experienced rifle shooter. I'll be keeping an eye out for this thread and your answers to these questions. Take care and hope this helps.

[Slick17]

Thanks a lot Tom. You gave a lot of good points that I have been looking for. All the other forums and responses just talk about the same things, the stock and the barrel length. A lot of them never even mention the twist rate.

And yes this one I am planning on the .308.

For the range that I am prolly going to shoot is around 500-600 yards. I have a field in front of my house that I have been itching to shoot out to. I took my range finder and from where I shoot the furthest point is 642 yards. I would also possibly like to hunt with this rifle but mainly use it for precision shooting. If I had some where to shoot to 1000 yards I would try but don't have access to that.

My current gun I just built is a RRA 24" varmint in .223 that I love and have only shot out to about 400 yards. By the way I have been keeping up on your post and love the new one you just built, and all you others.

For the scope I just bought a Falcon Menace 4.5-18x56. Took a chance and so far love it. so that's what I will be mounting on the new rifle.

As for hand loads. I wish I had the set up for it to start. I have read all about it and seen what shooters can do with their hand loads over factory ammo and it amazes me. but at this time I'm just trying to get my funds together to get a decent rifle that I can shoot and have fun with. So I won't be doing any hand loads for awhile.

thanks again for your knowledge Tom.

[Tomcat088]

You've very welcome buddy, I'm glad that I can offer up what knowledge that I have. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't hunt with your precision rifle, precision always helps on animals that need good bullet placement.

It sounds like you have access to a very long range (longest I've heard around PA), so it sounds like you can realistically shoot those distances (which is good). It sounds like you have a really nice AR that will take care of business. I really appreciate the compliments on the rifle , I didn't know if many people had really noticed it since only a few had said much about it.

I don't think that you'll have any problems with your Falcon Menace, they're good glass for the money and have alot of desirable tactical features. So I don't think you took too big of a chance, and glad tha tyou like the scope. Don't get too strained about good handloads, it takes a while to get all the funds together to get a nice rig (rifle and scope), and then longer to get a reloading setup and learn how to use it properly. Since you're shooting .308, remember that if you want it to be a precision rifle, you have to use the correction ammunition. Most guys that shoot factory ammunition out of their precision sets up (many do), shoot Federal Gold Medal Match, or black hills stuff. You can practice with other stuff, but you'll probably see the inconsistency of the ammunition if you go with cheaper stuff, and difference in your point of impact from the more expensive stuff. Just try to make every shot count (they're expensive), and try to always know how you felt when you pulled the trigger and why you missed or hit. Best of luck to you, and please feel free to drop me a PM if you get bored or need any help.

P.S. If you are interested in that 20" barrel and think it will limit you, that 20" barrel should still take you to 650 yards without any problems with even good factory ammo like FGMM and black hills.

[Slick17]

Thanks. I think I'm going to consider the SPS Tactical.

By the way I'm in MD so if your ever doen this way we have the area if you want to shoot.

I understand about the funds for the reloading set up. I just built the AR over the summer and I'm glad that I did b/c of the price increase and not being able to find everything now. I guess I'm not to bad for what I know, I'm about to turn 21 so I guess I can read more of your post for more knowledge. I just read your's about the different bedding types and which does what. Still, more good info.

[Tomcat088]

Sweet deal, thanks for the invitation, and sorry I didn't notice your location. I'm not from PA either, lol, but most people on here are, so sometimes I forget to check out other people's locations. That's good that you got the AR setup finished before all these increases.

Lol, you seem like you're already off to a good start in terms of knowledge base and asking alot of questions. I'm by no means an expert, and not much older than you, but I've had some good shooters as teachers, so I'm pretty lucky. Just keep asking questions, reading, and never feel like you have enough knowledge and you'll be great.

Because you have a scope that has basically a generation II Mildot reticle (except it has clear posts, and no bottom stadia), you might want to consider learning how to use your scope and reticle to the fullest. There's a lengthy article that I wrote in optics that is stickied about mildots. It's a bit exhausting some time, but if you can learn to use your reticle, it'll do wonders for holds, corrections and long distance shooting.

[Slick17]

Thanks. I will look into that. I've been trying to learn more about my reticle.

Don'e worry about the location. I do the same thing. I just try to find more people in MD here. I wish MD had a good forum like this one. But hay PA is close enough for me. Just need to get up there more often for shows and such.

[BallisticTech]

If you want to learn more about mildot reticles, then http://ballistictech.com/catalog/dis...anual-p-1.html

[Slick17]

Thanks Ballistictech. I remember looking at this site before when I was looking into getting a log book. I think they had the best I could find. I will most likely be buying one once I get my new rifle. Thanks for the info again.

P.S. is this your site? Just noticed your name and the site name.

[arrrrgh15]

good luck with the purchase! I'm always glad when people get interested in precision shooting and actually intend to shoot past a few hundred yards. And I'm a little jealous you have a 642 yard shot out your back yard. I've got to travel to find a shot that far. Consider yourself lucky and take full advantage of it.

If you care to venture north into PA, look up Mifflin County Sportsmans Association for taking shots to 1000 yards. Pack the gun, spend the day. It's worth the membership fee and the drive, even if you can only make it out there a few times a year. Steel at known and unknown distances. There's a couple guys from WV that make the trip up to shoot. I usually go there to practice before matches.

As tomcat088 said, don't skimp on the ammo. I've been shooting the black hills match with good results. I just now started taking the plunge into reloading. But I'll still probably shoot black hills at matches until I get confident in my reloading ability.

Cheers.