Still not sure.

[cadence2arms]

I have read through many old threads about carrying on school grounds but I need to be sure!I live a few blocks away from an elementary school and my wife and I take my daughter for walks daily around the building. Everytime I see a gun free sign I quiver at the thought of being stopped by a LEO. I understand carrying within 1000 ft is legal with a ltcf, but what about the side-walk running around the school? Some spots the sidewalk is touching the building. Is that on school property, is it legal to be THAT CLOSE. Can I be across the street and be legal. What about in the school lot? What if I go onto the outdoor basketball courts so my daughter can ride her bike? I know this came up a million times but I need specifics!

[knight0334]

I have read through many old threads about carrying on school grounds but I need to be sure!I live a few blocks away from an elementary school and my wife and I take my daughter for walks daily around the building. Everytime I see a gun free sign I quiver at the thought of being stopped by a LEO. I understand carrying within 1000 ft is legal with a ltcf, but what about the side-walk running around the school? Some spots the sidewalk is touching the building. Is that on school property, is it legal to be THAT CLOSE. Can I be across the street and be legal. What about in the school lot? What if I go onto the outdoor basketball courts so my daughter can ride her bike? I know this came up a million times but I need specifics!

The sidewalk along a public road is generally legal, a sidewalk around the building that isn't on public Right-of-Way is still a matter of debate yet with the "lawful purposes" clause. You have to know where the schools property starts/ends versus the public domain. A sidewalk isn't just a public walkway, unless it is actually on public domain, same with roads.

Assuming that the "other lawful purposes" doesn't include self-defense... The parking lot would be off-limits, and sidewalks on the property of the school would be off-limits, any private lanes on the school property would be off-limits, any part of any grounds of the school would be off-limits.

Public right-of-ways are generally 25ft to 50ft wide, some going as narrow as 4' 8-1/2" to hundreds of feet wide. Only the sidewalks within that public right-of-way is public domain.

[Pa. Patriot]

With the LTCF you are exempt from the Fed Gun-Free School Zone act while in Pa., Period, end of story on that.

Now Pennsylvania law is another matter.

18.Pa.C.S.912 generally prohibits firearms possession on "school grounds".

Obviously, school grounds is exactly that, school grounds. If you have any question what is and is not school grounds you will have to inquire locally (preferably through an attorney) as to the specifics of any given area.

Additionally, paragraph (c) of the Pa. law cited above provides within the statute that "It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose"

Unfortunately we have no case law to verify this will protect you as a LTCF holder or not. The case law we have found has appeared to intentionally avoid the specific defense (such as ruling on constructive possession, etc).

Those cases are cited in other posts where this topic has been discussed.

Point being, most here will say the law provides a clear defense for your circumstance but that defense has not been tested.

[TaePo]

R.O.W (right of way) aid:

I worked for the gas co. way back to get permits for digging and emplacing gas lines.

We had maps that showed us ROW and the state has line drawings for highways and state (and IIRC federal) roadways. They are tricky to navigate if you are not used to straight line drawings of curvy roads! I did not google so don't know if anything is online.

However, a quicky view was to note the telephone poles. If you are between the telephone/electric poles and the road, you should be in ROW.

They tend to put the poles just shy of the ROW. Everything else goes in a trech before it. That way the undergrounds can cross roads with impunity if need be.

Now, this is not to say that the ROW could not have been moved since the pole(s) were put in, thus making them several more feet behind the poles. But that does not effect our little exercise here.

This for along public roadways not private drives or service poles etc.

[knight0334]

I did a quick drawing as to how property and sidewalks could be off-limits in regards to schools, or even private property for that matter.


you will need a pdf reader of some sort.

[nflesher87]

Sorry I don't have any advice regarding the OP's question but I have a related question. From what I can interpret from the law, only state/gov funded schools are off limits, does that mean I'm OK to conceal with a LTCF at my private college (Washington & Jefferson College)?

thanks in advance
and to the OP, if you know you're going on the walk, why not just leave your gun at home to avoid the worry?

[knight0334]

Sorry I don't have any advice regarding the OP's question but I have a related question. From what I can interpret from the law, only state/gov funded schools are off limits, does that mean I'm OK to conceal with a LTCF at my private college (Washington & Jefferson College)?

thanks in advance
and to the OP, if you know you're going on the walk, why not just leave your gun at home to avoid the worry?

"School" means "Elementary and Secondary schools" which is kindergarten through 12th grade in PA law, both public and private. ...Not colleges.

The college itself could expel you, fail you, or ask you to leave, or whatever. Its not a state offense until they tell you to leave, then trespassing plays in.

Pass the word on, colleges are not "schools".

[LittleRedToyota]

Sorry I don't have any advice regarding the OP's question but I have a related question. From what I can interpret from the law, only state/gov funded schools are off limits, does that mean I'm OK to conceal with a LTCF at my private college (Washington & Jefferson College)?

even state colleges are not off limits by law. the law only applies to K through 12 schools.

however, with either a private college or a state college, the school can make a regulation against carrying on campus. if you are a student, you can be expelled for breaking school regulations. if you are an employee of the school, you can be fired for breaking school regulations.

if you are neither, most likely all they can do is ask you to leave. if you they ask you to leave and you do not, you could be charged with trespassing. if they have no trespassing signs posted, you could be charged with trespassing without even being asked to leave. there are also those (including at least one lawyer who posts here) who feel that a "no guns" sign could constitute notice against trespassing and so you *might* be able to be charged with trespassing for ignoring a "no guns" sign even if it is not actually a "no trespassing" sign. however, that never seems to have actually happened (and i personally think that you can make a decent technical argument that a "no guns" sign does not fulfill the requirements of the PA trespassing statute, but i am not a lawyer).

and to the OP, if you know you're going on the walk, why not just leave your gun at home to avoid the worry?

because mr. murphy says that the day you leave your gun at home is the day you will end up needing to have your gun with you. you cannot predict when or where violent crime will happen.

(btw, i have CC'd in elementary schools many times. never had any problems. then again, prolly no one knew i was carrying. i have read the law, though, and according to the letter of the law, i have a valid defense--albeit one which has never been tested in court. take this only for what it is worth and nothing more...and your mileage may vary...and all that fun stuff.)

[nflesher87]

thanks guys, both rep'd

As far as carrying at school (I'm a student) I'm not going to be notifying anyone, the only reason anyone would find out is if I was unfortunate enough to have to use it. So essentially there shouldn't be a problem if the only reason anyone would find out I'm carrying is if I am forced to lawfully use it in defense, right?
You were just referencing removal from grounds/expulsion in the case of the school being tipped off to my carrying right?

EDIT: From the W&J website:

Q: Can I carry a gun as a means of self-protection?
A: No. The carrying or possession of firearms and/or other weapons on campus by anyone other than Washington City police is absolutely prohibited. You may bring a firearm directly to security and it will be stored for you. Any student wishing to bring a weapon to campus should notify the Office of Protection Services prior to their arrival on campus.

Go liberal-liberal arts schooling!

[cadence2arms]

I did a quick drawing as to how property and sidewalks could be off-limits in regards to schools, or even private property for that matter.


you will need a pdf reader of some sort.

thanks for taking the time.(rep. added)