When to draw?

[Virtualmatt]

Now obviously, as all situations are unique, there is no definite statement for any of the following scenarios. But if you had to make a decision based on the information given, what would you do?

Assume that you're carrying concealed:

1. If a guy comes up to you with a knife and demands your wallet/cellphone/purse/wedding ring/whatever, do you just give him what he demands? Do you draw and hope he runs? Do you draw and immediately fire?

2. If a guy comes up to you and says he has a gun and demands items, do you give him what he asks for? Do you draw and give him some line out of a cheesy action movie: "Yeah, so do I." Do you just draw and fire?

3. If a guy comes up to you with a visible gun drawn, do you try to outdraw and fire on him? Do you give him what he wants?


I feel like the generic response in all situations would be to give the thief what he wants and hope he doesn't want to kill you also. I guess you'd have to try to play guessing games about his intentions past that?

What do you all think? What situations would cause you to draw and possible fire? Are there set rules?

[sxHarr05]

1) Throw money and cell on ground. When he bends over to pick it up, kick cranium. Call 911.
2) Hand him money, phone and whatever, then reach back for my "wallet" and level sights at his face. Make him dial 911 from MY cell phone.
3) Jump up and down screaming like a schoolgirl mid-tantrum and hope he runs away.

Obviously, one of these answers was in jest. In today's society, you are more likely than not to just be stabbed/shot/hit with a brick BEFORE any demands are made. Your best bet is to be vigilant and aware of your surroundings and the people who occupy them. And don't put yourself in bad surroundings if at all possible. Will there be instances where someone is taken by surprise? Absolutely. But you should always try your best to observe people and look for signs in their demeanor or body language that suggest ill intent. In life, there are times where the old sports cliche fits......

"The best offense is a good defense." Or, DefenCe, for the hockey fans among us.

[bigrdenu]

The answer to all your questions is the same. You draw when you feel your life is in danger and deadly force is justified. It is not legal, nor in my mind is it ethical to kill someone over property. A human life, regardless of character should be protected. So if the criminal wants your money give it to him. That being said if you feel your life to be in danger then draw your weapon and fire. Do so in one motion. IMO one should never draw before one is ready/justified in firing. Ultimately, It comes down to what you feel at the time.

[338winmag]

1- draw weapon if he dose not leave or comes closer shoot him.

2-draw weapon if he produces one shoot him before he shoots me

3-give him what he wants when he is walking away yell at him when he turns shoot him.but make shore you kill him so its your word against a dead man you win.

[338winmag]

The answer to all your questions is the same. You draw when you feel your life is in danger and deadly force is justified. It is not legal, nor in my mind is it ethical to kill someone over property. A human life, regardless of character should be protected. So if the criminal wants your money give it to him. That being said if you feel your life to be in danger then draw your weapon and fire. Do so in one motion. IMO one should never draw before one is ready/justified in firing. Ultimately, It comes down to what you feel at the time.

i cant believe you said if a criminal wants your money just give it to him.i will not give my hard earned money to a low life pos who has probably never worked a day in his life.

[adymond]

The answer to all your questions is the same. You draw when you feel your life is in danger and deadly force is justified. It is not legal, nor in my mind is it ethical to kill someone over property. A human life, regardless of character should be protected. So if the criminal wants your money give it to him. That being said if you feel your life to be in danger then draw your weapon and fire. Do so in one motion. IMO one should never draw before one is ready/justified in firing. Ultimately, It comes down to what you feel at the time.

So you are saying anyone who demands you relinquish your property you are willing to just hand it over without the potential use of force?

[Pa. Patriot]

The main thing folks need to realize here is that the objective is to survive.

Drawing a gun may be a good way to get into a gun fight. Gun fights are a good way to get KILLED. Getting killed = you failed at obtaining the objective.

Lets look at the scenario that folks are questioning the passive response suggested. Throwing the money/wallet is a good way to have an opening to leave. You gave them what they wanted, LEAVE.
Now pulling a gun in that scenario may or may not be beneficial. What if suspect A has an accomplice? An accomplice positioned off to the side out of your vision? You pull a gun guess what is gong to happen?

The point here is that the gun may not be the answer to every problem.

This thread is a perfect example why these types of scenarios are not well discussed in a two dimensional environment, such as a computer screen.

In a force on force scenario there are variables difficult, tedious and even impossible to convey through a written account. Without these variables it is of very limited usefulness to hypothesize a reaction.

Short version of the story is that sometimes it is advantageous to pull your gun, sometimes it is not. The lack of info in the OP's scenarios makes it impossible to say which is right or wrong.
These questions are *best* answered by participating in live role playing force on force training.

I hope what I am saying reads they way I'm thinking it.

[338winmag]

The main thing folks need to realize here is that the objective is to survive.

Drawing a gun may be a good way to get into a gun fight. Gun fights are a good way to get KILLED. Getting killed = you failed at obtaining the objective.

Lets look at the scenario that folks are questioning the passive response suggested. Throwing the money/wallet is a good way to have an opening to leave. You gave them what they wanted, LEAVE.
Now pulling a gun in that scenario may or may not be beneficial. What if suspect A has an accomplice? An accomplice positioned off to the side out of your vision? You pull a gun guess what is gong to happen?

The point here is that the gun may not be the answer to every problem.

This thread is a perfect example why these types of scenarios are not well discussed in a two dimensional environment, such as a computer screen.

In a force on force scenario there are variables difficult, tedious and even impossible to convey through a written account. Without these variables it is of very limited usefulness to hypothesize a reaction.

Short version of the story is that sometimes it is advantageous to pull your gun, sometimes it is not. The lack of info in the OP's scenarios makes it impossible to say which is right or wrong.
These questions are *best* answered by participating in live role playing force on force training.

I hope what I am saying reads they way I'm thinking it.

very good point.

[smores]

In PA are you allowed to draw a weapon in order to affect a citizen's arrest on an individual in the commission of a felony?

I would only draw if I knew I could do it quickly enough to surprise them, and only if I felt threatened. But seeing as I've never been stopped on the street and coerced to give up my property, I would most likely feel threatened, then present my weapon and state "don't move or I will assume you are trying to injure/kill me."

Giving the BG your phone and making him/her dial 911 is a good idea, but what if they run off with your phone - grab a couple friends, and come back for you (if you're traveling on foot or your destination is known)?

I remember a case where a man working in a gun store was robbed, and the guy took his wallet, which had his home address where his sickly mother was alone with no protection. Even after giving over the things the robber wanted (including weapons and ammo from the store) the clerk was shot in the head. The shot wasn't totally incapacitating and the victim drew his gun, and followed the perp outside and shot him several times. Later it was argued in court that he was acting to defend the life of his mother (and others since the guy had implied things about taking several other people out in a rampage) since the perp had the address where he could have gone and robbed/murdered at his desire.

[knight0334]

There are too many variables to safely say when, why, how and where you can draw.

There are times you can use "force", and there are times you can use "deadly force". ...Drawing and aiming is just "force", shooting is "deadly force".

Factors like the following, but not limited to, can and do say when its best, safe, legal/illegal to use such force on another:
statutory law
case law
common law
local political alignment
common sense
tactical/strategic situational factors
actual threat to life/limb
are there kids behind them


Not only do you have to worry about not getting killed, but also staying out of prison. Would there be times its best to just hand over your goods and let them get away? Yes... Are there times you can pop them just because they stepped over the rule of law by a fraction of an inch? Yes..

These scenario threads are asinine and dangerous all in one. Dangerous in the respect that someone might rely on good and legal advice instead of following instinct, and it gets them hurt or killed. Or miss-perceive a scenario as legal, or illegal, to use (deadly)force and either unlawfully use it or fail to use it when it was prudent.

Read the laws and get a fair grasp at what they say. Then study up on case and common law. Take some defensive course to help with tactical and strategic scenarios.