Relinquishing firearms during the course of a court case?

[Aendil]

First of all, I apologize if I am not using the proper sub-forum. I looked around but couldn't find one more suitable for this question.
I am a PA notary and I got a strange request from someone who I suspect had a someone with a felony in the house.
I think PA state police asked him to dispose of any firearms for a duration of a court case, investigation or whatever, and he asks me for a text of a power of attorney with which he will provide his firearms to someone else "for safekeeping".
I have never come across such procedure, process, or request so I don't have a template or anything to lean on, and the fact that I don't see one on the internet makes me very wary of notarizing such power of attorney.
Any thoughts? Anyone having similar experience to give me a hint, verbiage or advice?

[ImminentDanger]

See Post #6 of this thread:
https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=292460

You can search PAFOA using the search box above, just below the PAFOA logo.

If you don't get enough responses in this section,
You can ask a moderator to move this thread to the General Section:
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...

[benny swartz]

First of all, I apologize if I am not using the proper sub-forum. I looked around but couldn't find one more suitable for this question.
I am a PA notary and I got a strange request from someone who I suspect had a someone with a felony in the house.
I think PA state police asked him to dispose of any firearms for a duration of a court case, investigation or whatever, and he asks me for a text of a power of attorney with which he will provide his firearms to someone else "for safekeeping".
I have never come across such procedure, process, or request so I don't have a template or anything to lean on, and the fact that I don't see one on the internet makes me very wary of notarizing such power of attorney.
Any thoughts? Anyone having similar experience to give me a hint, verbiage or advice?

have seen this scenario multiple times in miff co pa . the sheriffs or officers normally recommend it or require it in certain cases . now as for your question . if the sheriffs /cops are allowing them to keep the firearms in another persons domicile / storage . its more of a these are mine after i am cleared document . which is a way better scenario than when the sheriff or police hold them . they normally require the owner to prove ownership to retake controlling possession. which if it was a privately bought legal long arm ? cant be done to their satisfaction .
watched one guy lose 2 out of 11 in this scenario as he didnt have money to legally challenge . the other spent a light retainer of a lawyer , had 1 paper filed with sheriff with his written documentation of serial numbers and the actual state laws on red flag laws . theirs were hand delivered within an hour .
i would say a basic power of attorney document with it being specified , that the firearms were the only item being applied to ? such as they do for auto documents ? should suffice .

[Aendil]

have seen this scenario multiple times in miff co pa . the sheriffs or officers normally recommend it or require it in certain cases . now as for your question . if the sheriffs /cops are allowing them to keep the firearms in another persons domicile / storage . its more of a these are mine after i am cleared document . which is a way better scenario than when the sheriff or police hold them . they normally require the owner to prove ownership to retake controlling possession. which if it was a privately bought legal long arm ? cant be done to their satisfaction .
watched one guy lose 2 out of 11 in this scenario as he didnt have money to legally challenge . the other spent a light retainer of a lawyer , had 1 paper filed with sheriff with his written documentation of serial numbers and the actual state laws on red flag laws . theirs were hand delivered within an hour .
i would say a basic power of attorney document with it being specified , that the firearms were the only item being applied to ? such as they do for auto documents ? should suffice .

Thank you so much for this. At least it is not a completely unknown practice - this makes me feel better about notarizing a document for him. I am not clear though why is there a power of attorney needed for the person who will be temporarily be holding his firearms? Can he just give them the firearms, list them on a piece of paper and be done with it until criminal investigation or whatever criteria are need to be satisfied, are satisfied. I don't see the need for notarization here. I'm afraid only if there is a transfer, doesn't that invoke a more involved documentation looping in a use of a FFL. I don't want to be put in a position where a transfer requires use of an FFL but instead I am supplying a notarization of a document where this transfer takes place.


Edit: After talking with the county sheriff's office, I an convinced any transfer takes a 4473 and an FFL to complete. No matter what power of attorney I sign off on will replace or satisfy this requirement. Moreover, completing the transfer this way, negates the need for notarization of any other document. Leaving this here in case anyone falls in the same situation.

[Bang]

It is legal to place a gun in the possession of another PA person having a license to carry firearms. Why not just take advantage of a cooperating friend or relative who has one?

[Emptymag]

Yeah, I thought "guns" could be loaned to other people, provided all the "rules" were followed - I'm just fuzzy on the details.
It's been discussed many times. (in the past - when this forum was more focused on gun talk than food critiques)

[Carson]

Yeah, I thought "guns" could be loaned to other people, provided all the "rules" were followed - I'm just fuzzy on the details.
It's been discussed many times. (in the past - when this forum was more focused on gun talk than food critiques)

I think the spirit of the definition *loan* is *hey you can hold onto my Remington 700 for as long as you want to try it out and see if you like it*.

And not *Will you hold on to my 37 gun collection until this legal matter is over*.

Listing all of the firearms serial numbers, make and models, with a Notary, is to ensue you get all of them back from your friend.

My 2 cents worth.

[Emptymag]

I think the spirit of the definition *loan* is *hey you can hold onto my Remington 700 for as long as you want to try it out and see if you like it*.

And not *Will you hold on to my 37 gun collection until this legal matter is over*.

Listing all of the firearms serial numbers, make and models, with a Notary, is to ensue you get all of them back from your friend.

My 2 cents worth.

OK, but is there legally a difference?

That's what I'm unsure of.
This isn't the first time someone had to have someone else hold onto their guns for a while in this manner - I just can't recall what the "parameters" are.

[Curmudgeon]

Has this question not already been answered in the link in Post #2 by ImminentDanger?

Granted, the cite to 23 Pa.C.S.A. § 6108.3 is a lengthy read but the real important parts
are pretty easy to see. Originally posted by knight0334. IMHO it covers the issue quite well
and is directly to the point of the question(s).
Unless the statutes have changed?

[markshere2]

I think the spirit of the definition *loan* is *hey you can hold onto my Remington 700 for as long as you want to try it out and see if you like it*.

And not *Will you hold on to my 37 gun collection until this legal matter is over*.

Listing all of the firearms serial numbers, make and models, with a Notary, is to ensue you get all of them back from your friend.

My 2 cents worth.

Lawfare run amok has been one defining characteristic since Obama took office.
Perhaps before, but it became obvious to me that "the process is the punishment" for those of us that dare to disagree with the leftist elites.

You speak of "the spirit of the definition" as if it is meaningful in court. I don't think I would want to pin my hopes on that.

Back in 2015 I chimed in on the thread mentioned above.
https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=292460

I have changed my position since then to reflect a later post from Ian

"I have done this for someone a few years back.

Cops came asked for his guns, he said he got rid of them, "please search, I have none". He moved out. The PFA was thrown out after a while.

Messy divorce later, I returned them."

What John Law doesn't know about, can't hurt you.

The hard part is knowing who to trust.