Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    I imagine we have all had this experience at a gun show. After negotiating a purchase price, the seller states “We gotta find someone who can do a transfer, I don’t have an FFL”. So you end up going to one of his buddies who has you fill out the paperwork while he conducts the background check. From the BATF website, a firearms dealer who must have an FFL is defined as:

    3. Dealer in firearms -- a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C));

    So I assume that anybody selling guns from a table at a gun show should either be an FFL dealer who is required to perform a background check, or someone selling from their personal collection, who is not. I don’t see anything about requiring a third party to do a transfer. This doesn’t sound like a legal requirement to me. Are the sellers simply using the background to check to make sure they don’t sell to prohibited persons? What am I missing here?

  2. #2
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    Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritz1255 View Post
    I imagine we have all had this experience at a gun show. After negotiating a purchase price, the seller states *We gotta find someone who can do a transfer, I don*t have an FFL*. So you end up going to one of his buddies who has you fill out the paperwork while he conducts the background check. From the BATF website, a firearms dealer who must have an FFL is defined as:

    3. Dealer in firearms -- a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C));

    So I assume that anybody selling guns from a table at a gun show should either be an FFL dealer who is required to perform a background check, or someone selling from their personal collection, who is not. I don*t see anything about requiring a third party to do a transfer. This doesn*t sound like a legal requirement to me. Are the sellers simply using the background to check to make sure they don*t sell to prohibited persons? What am I missing here?
    Any one selling a hand gun must have the gun transferred by a FFL which includes the background check. If they don't have one they need to go thru one, just like if I wanted to sell you a handgun here in PA. This sounds like the case you describe...
    Illegitimus non carborundum est

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Actually this was a long gun most recently ( couple of weeks ago).

  4. #4
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    May 2007
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    Broomall, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    PA res to PA res does not require a 4473 , PICs check for a long gun. If seller wants one, HE pays the dealer.

  5. #5
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    lewistown, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    i know a few that setup occasionally to sell personals at shows . most will state up front on handguns , that they need to do at another stand . most already have a few friends that will do them reasonable for them .
    but i also know the one will scrutinize a persons actions or look or the feel of the sale , and will require it for long guns , he pays himself , so there is no excuse for the buyer . it has flipped a few sales . proving his gut was right .
    many also watch the perusers of the guns and whom they are with on the first pass , as many dirty buyers will send a lady or someone else back to do the deal . which seems to really be a hot target for the atf the last few years .
    its like tagged prices , its a personal choice to display it up front . but many will shy away from having to ask . watched too many flip prices to two different people , on the same piece .

  6. #6
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    Carlisle, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    As stated, in Pa a background check on the buyer is required by anyone selling a handgun. The exemptions are if the buyer holds either an FFL, or a C&R license if the gun is more than 50 years old. Although it is legal for private party sales of long guns, it is illegal to sell to a restricted person such as a felon. This is why some hesitate to sell to a stranger without a background check. I've seen ads here and elsewhere where the seller requires a non FFL buyer to undergo a background check or show a conceal carry permit when selling a long gun. They are covering their butt.

    John

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
    As stated, in Pa a background check on the buyer is required by anyone selling a handgun. The exemptions are if the buyer holds either an FFL, or a C&R license if the gun is more than 50 years old. Although it is legal for private party sales of long guns, it is illegal to sell to a restricted person such as a felon. This is why some hesitate to sell to a stranger without a background check. I've seen ads here and elsewhere where the seller requires a non FFL buyer to undergo a background check or show a conceal carry permit when selling a long gun. They are covering their butt.

    John
    I suspect that ignorance of the law has a little to do with it as well, but that's just my opinion. Just out of curiosity, how long has the law about requiring a background check for private sale of a handgun been in effect?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritz1255 View Post
    I suspect that ignorance of the law has a little to do with it as well, but that's just my opinion. Just out of curiosity, how long has the law about requiring a background check for private sale of a handgun been in effect?
    For PA circa 1995
    IANAL

  9. #9
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    York, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    some private sellers will also do background checks because they are not from PA. I know of several *table top dealers* from other states that set up at the Oaks show and sell their firearms to PA residents without paperwork. They will sometimes do paperwork and transfers but in their case, neither way is legal. some sellers just want to be assured that they wont end up in court over the sale of a gun if it turns up in the wrong hands later on. The gun dealer doing that background check will end up in court and is held liable for that paperwork for the entirety they are in business. Many dealers refuse to do private party transfers at shows, and that is honestly the best practice.

  10. #10
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    Northeastern, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Many dealers refuse to do private party transfers at shows, and that is honestly the best practice.

    Why is that "honestly the best practice"?

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