Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by mokoitis View Post
    Many dealers refuse to do private party transfers at shows, and that is honestly the best practice.

    Why is that "honestly the best practice"?
    economics is the simple answer. lets say you charge $25 for a transfer*i mean any higher than that and people will bitch up a storm. for the $25, you give the state some of it. the rest is for the dealer after he completes the check, and logging in and out on his time after the show. now, lets say the show is out of town and you have a 2 hours drive back home. after pack up, drive, and unpacking you then sit down to do your paperwork and complete the logging process. later on you will pay the state their money for the check and fill out more paperwork for this same transaction. then you file it away ready for an ATF inspection at any moment for the rest of the time you are in business. now, 10 weeks*months*or years down the road*the firearm is stolen/ends up in a crime/etc. and the ATF conducts a trace. they call you out of the blue*and you have to take more of your time to do the research and call the ATF back. perhaps a year goes by and a prosecutor calls you and sends you a subpoena in the mail for you to show up at a courthouse in the same county the show was held at*.2 hours from your place of business. so you close down your shop for the day, drive to the court house, waste your time, gas, and tolls just so you can testify about a transaction you did the paperwork for*but never made money off of. now, you are out the cost of all of the above as well as a day of lost productivity and your time. not a single person on here would sacrifice this if their employer demanded it.

  2. #12
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    Dec 2017
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    lewistown, Pennsylvania
    (Mifflin County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    in a private to private , but through an ffl scenario. such as you mentioned , private out of stater with table at oaks . goes to ffl to transfer . is it legit for ffl to accept directly from him , to sign into books ? then disposition out to in state buyer ? just wondering as i know they weird about buying out of state without shipping to ffl

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Berks County, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    some private sellers will also do background checks because they are not from PA. I know of several *table top dealers* from other states that set up at the Oaks show and sell their firearms to PA residents without paperwork. They will sometimes do paperwork and transfers but in their case, neither way is legal. some sellers just want to be assured that they wont end up in court over the sale of a gun if it turns up in the wrong hands later on. The gun dealer doing that background check will end up in court and is held liable for that paperwork for the entirety they are in business. Many dealers refuse to do private party transfers at shows, and that is honestly the best practice.
    Gun show loophole?



    No, just stupid.

    And not to digress to the whole idea of background checks, etc., but a non-FFL with a table at a gun show just seems to be asking for trouble. I suppose the one-time personal collection scenario comes into play, but if that same person repeatedly shows up at gun shows...

  4. #14
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    Mar 2015
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    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    Gun show loophole?



    No, just stupid.

    And not to digress to the whole idea of background checks, etc., but a non-FFL with a table at a gun show just seems to be asking for trouble. I suppose the one-time personal collection scenario comes into play, but if that same person repeatedly shows up at gun shows...
    yes, there are many regular *private sellers* that attend multiple shows each year. some frequent every show in the area. some frequent every show in their area*in multiple states. those are the guys breaking the law.

  5. #15
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    Mar 2015
    Location
    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by benny swartz View Post
    in a private to private , but through an ffl scenario. such as you mentioned , private out of stater with table at oaks . goes to ffl to transfer . is it legit for ffl to accept directly from him , to sign into books ? then disposition out to in state buyer ? just wondering as i know they weird about buying out of state without shipping to ffl
    the legal issue resides in the act of transferring a firearm from an out of state person to someone in state directly on the spot. all out of state firearms must be shipped to an FFL and the FFL then transfers said firearm to the purchaser. no *on site* immediate transfers (even between dealers) are legal. many FFLs will break this law unknowingly by thinking they conducted the background check so what does it matter? The ATF distinctly describes this scenario in detail during its interviews. ALL firearms must be transferred to an out of state dealer prior to the transfer. for instance, if a PA dealer is at a MD show, they cannot simply sell a gun and walk it over to a MD dealer for them to do the transfer. C&R eligible firearms are exempt for this law. if you are an out of state seller, you can only take an order for a modern firearm and must then ship it to a transfer dealer. Not sure if i worded that properly or if it makes sense. I have seen this exact scenario unfold many times at various show locations. I have also seen a specific MD private seller break this law many times. He told me that he has a Maryland issued FFL that allows him to buy and sell without doing any paperwork that he calls a *table top license*. He sets up at Oaks, York, Harrisburg, and various flea markets. He is so full of shit, that he actually believes his own lies.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    lewistown, Pennsylvania
    (Mifflin County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    i know of the dealer you are referring to. and that answers my question . its one of the laws stretched or read to fit their beliefs as needed.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    New London, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    yes, there are many regular *private sellers* that attend multiple shows each year. some frequent every show in the area. some frequent every show in their area*in multiple states. those are the guys breaking the law.
    That's kind of what I thought. To use a Claude Raines line from Casablanca, "I am shocked, SHOCKED, to find out that there is gambling going on here".

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Northeastern, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    economics is the simple answer. lets say you charge $25 for a transfer*i mean any higher than that and people will bitch up a storm. for the $25, you give the state some of it. the rest is for the dealer after he completes the check, and logging in and out on his time after the show. now, lets say the show is out of town and you have a 2 hours drive back home. after pack up, drive, and unpacking you then sit down to do your paperwork and complete the logging process. later on you will pay the state their money for the check and fill out more paperwork for this same transaction. then you file it away ready for an ATF inspection at any moment for the rest of the time you are in business. now, 10 weeks*months*or years down the road*the firearm is stolen/ends up in a crime/etc. and the ATF conducts a trace. they call you out of the blue*and you have to take more of your time to do the research and call the ATF back. perhaps a year goes by and a prosecutor calls you and sends you a subpoena in the mail for you to show up at a courthouse in the same county the show was held at*.2 hours from your place of business. so you close down your shop for the day, drive to the court house, waste your time, gas, and tolls just so you can testify about a transaction you did the paperwork for*but never made money off of. now, you are out the cost of all of the above as well as a day of lost productivity and your time. not a single person on here would sacrifice this if their employer demanded it.
    This has happened to you how many times?

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by mokoitis View Post
    This has happened to you how many times?
    enough to never put myself in that position again. id ask you how many times you did something for someone that cost you money*but im sure you probably dont do things for other people. and im positive if you did do something for someone and it cost you money*you would never do it again. any other stupid questions you want to ask?

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    jersey shore, Pennsylvania
    (Lycoming County)
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    Default Re: Third Party Transfers at Gun Shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    enough to never put myself in that position again. id ask you how many times you did something for someone that cost you money*but im sure you probably dont do things for other people. and im positive if you did do something for someone and it cost you money*you would never do it again. any other stupid questions you want to ask?
    How about, who pissed in your cheerios today???

    I took that as a serious question and wondered how often that happens to myself when I read that post.

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