GOA Alert: Stop Gun Violence Task Forces (HB 483)

[ar15jules]

I just wonder if anyone has read the bill? I did and it appears that the major goal of the bill is to give the PA Office of Attorney General jurisdiction outside of the Commonwealth Attorney's Act so that they can charge in the PA Crimes Code relative to section 6111 (sale of firearms) and 6105 (those not to possess firearms). This would mean they could charge for the straw purchase of firearms and those that receive them from the straw purchasers. We ALWAYS call for more enforcement of the laws that are already on the books. Right? This is an attempt to allow this to happen. How does this draw a negative stigma to law abiding gun owners? I know I've never strawed a gun or received a strawed gun. Help me understand why this is bad. Have no fear for those that oppose this bill, the PSP is generally opposed to any other agency gaining more arrest/prosecutorial authority. I suspect that this will die quickly.

[mikelets456]

I just wonder if anyone has read the bill? I did and it appears that the major goal of the bill is to give the PA Office of Attorney General jurisdiction outside of the Commonwealth Attorney's Act so that they can charge in the PA Crimes Code relative to section 6111 (sale of firearms) and 6105 (those not to possess firearms). This would mean they could charge for the straw purchase of firearms and those that receive them from the straw purchasers. We ALWAYS call for more enforcement of the laws that are already on the books. Right? This is an attempt to allow this to happen. How does this draw a negative stigma to law abiding gun owners? I know I've never strawed a gun or received a strawed gun. Help me understand why this is bad. Have no fear for those that oppose this bill, the PSP is generally opposed to any other agency gaining more arrest/prosecutorial authority. I suspect that this will die quickly.

You need to read Article 1 section 21 of the PA Constitution. If you TRUST politicians to subvert the Constitution "honestly" then YOU ARE the problem. Giving more power outside of the branches of government is never a good idea...now it become subjective to whomever is in charge. "Oh, you're MAGA? You're too dangerous to own a gun and selling to you would be a crime".

[Spoiler]

Done

[ar15jules]

You need to read Article 1 section 21 of the PA Constitution. If you TRUST politicians to subvert the Constitution "honestly" then YOU ARE the problem. Giving more power outside of the branches of government is never a good idea...now it become subjective to whomever is in charge. "Oh, you're MAGA? You're too dangerous to own a gun and selling to you would be a crime".

Then we can continue to allow drug addicted people and girlfriends to continue to straw purchase firearms for their prohibited drug dealers/boyfriends to commit more violent street crimes to further fuel the "guns are bad" narrative.

[Mosinshooter762]

I just wonder if anyone has read the bill? I did and it appears that the major goal of the bill is to give the PA Office of Attorney General jurisdiction outside of the Commonwealth Attorney's Act so that they can charge in the PA Crimes Code relative to section 6111 (sale of firearms) and 6105 (those not to possess firearms). This would mean they could charge for the straw purchase of firearms and those that receive them from the straw purchasers. We ALWAYS call for more enforcement of the laws that are already on the books. Right? This is an attempt to allow this to happen. How does this draw a negative stigma to law abiding gun owners? I know I've never strawed a gun or received a strawed gun. Help me understand why this is bad. Have no fear for those that oppose this bill, the PSP is generally opposed to any other agency gaining more arrest/prosecutorial authority. I suspect that this will die quickly.

Outside of Philadelphia, is there a widespread problem of non-prosecution of offenses in Pennsylvania?

Remember, there are many technicalities that are knowns, gray areas, or unknowns in the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) that could be used to ensnare otherwise good people. A good example of this is pistol grip firearms at least 26 inches in overall length but have less than an 18 inch barrel that fire shot shells, such as 12 ga shells.

The ATF's position is that this is an 'other' (not an NFA firearm, rifle, shotgun, or pistol) firearm. The PSP's current position, for one reason or the other, seems to be that they are firearms under the UFA. Unless a statute specifically says otherwise, Pennsylvania seems to, in fact, generally follow Federal law regarding firearms classification. This is problematic to the position of the PSP. Because of this general consistently between Pennsylvania law and Federal law with regards to classification, it introduces other legal problems to call the Mossberg Shockwave (for state purposes) to be a short barrel shotgun or smooth bore pistol. Though, I have argued in the past why these are not firearms for some purposes of the UFA, (such as most of Section 6111 and its Application/Record of Sale form requirement), for the sake of argument let's assume I'm wrong on this and that they are in fact and legally firearms for all purposes of the UFA.

Just to clarify, when I say firearms for all purposes of the UFA that means that the firearm is legally treated like a handgun for state purposes versus firearms such as long guns, other types of firearms, frames or receivers which are not legally considered a firearm for some purposes of the UFA (such as no Application/Record of Sale form requirement).

I was having a friendly talk in person with store employees and some strangers at a gun store about this issue sometime ago and pointed out that if the PSP is legally right about having to do an Application/Record of Sale for firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave then you can't just privately sell them. This made someone who was listening concerned because he said that he privately sold one to a friend in the past without even thinking about this point.

The point here is I'm not sure I want to give a statewide official, particularly a Democrat, the power to override a decision not to prosecute a case such as this if it came to the government's attention. This is a good example of one of the many possible known, unknown, or gray area technicalities of the UFA. Even if it turns out that it is not a UFA firearm for this purpose after trial or appeal and you win the case, in the end this still could be a very expensive, life changing experience that your local District Attorney on their own may of decided to spare you over this technicality.

[ar15jules]

Outside of Philadelphia, is there a widespread problem of non-prosecution of offenses in Pennsylvania?

Remember, there are many technicalities that are knowns, gray areas, or unknowns in the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) that could be used to ensnare otherwise good people. A good example of this is pistol grip firearms at least 26 inches in overall length but have less than an 18 inch barrel that fire shot shells, such as 12 ga shells.

The ATF's position is that this is an 'other' (not an NFA firearm, rifle, shotgun, or pistol) firearm. The PSP's current position, for one reason or the other, seems to be that they are firearms under the UFA. Unless a statute specifically says otherwise, Pennsylvania seems to, in fact, generally follow Federal law regarding firearms classification. This is problematic to the position of the PSP. Because of this general consistently between Pennsylvania law and Federal law with regards to classification it can introduce other legal problems to consider it for state purposes to be a short barrel shotgun or smooth bore pistol. Though, I have argued in the past why these are not firearms for some purposes of the UFA, (such as most of Section 6111 and its Application/Record of Sale form requirement), for the sake of argument let's assume I'm wrong on this and that they are in fact and legally firearms for all purposes of the UFA. Just to clarify, when I say firearms for all purposes of the UFA that means that the firearm is legally treated like a handgun for state purposes versus firearms such as long guns, other firearms, frames or receivers which are not legally considered a firearm for some purposes of the UFA (such as no Application/Record of Sale form requirement).

I was having a friendly talk in person with store employees and some strangers at a gun store about this issue sometime ago and pointed out that if the PSP is legally right about having to do an Application/Record of Sale for firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave then you can't just privately sell them. This made someone who was listening concerned because he said that he privately sold one to a friend in the past without even thinking about this point.

The point is I'm not sure I want to give a statewide official, particularly a Democrat, the power to override a decision not to prosecute a case such as this if it came to the government's attention. This is a good example of one of the many possible known, unknown, or gray area technicalities of the UFA. Even if it turns out that it is not a UFA firearm for this purpose after trial or appeal and you win the case, in the end this still could be a very expensive, life changing experience that your local District Attorney on their own may of decided to spare you over this technicality.

Firearm traffickers who intentionally provide firearms to prohibited people and a 70 year old guy at a hunting camp selling his hunting buddy from the American Legion a Shockwave not upon the place of business of an FFL or the County Sheriff are easily differentiated. Violent crime is the main focus of both the ATF and State and Local LE. If you put a Ruger Charger 10 inch barrel on your 10/22 takedown while on the back porch of your camp, no one gives a shit. Make short barreled rifles and sell them to the local outlaw motorcycle club and you have problems....

[Mosinshooter762]

Firearm traffickers who intentionally provide firearms to prohibited people and a 70 year old guy at a hunting camp selling his hunting buddy from the American Legion a Shockwave not upon the place of business of an FFL or the County Sheriff are easily differentiated. Violent crime is the main focus of both the ATF and State and Local LE. If you put a Ruger Charger 10 inch barrel on your 10/22 takedown while on the back porch of your camp, no one gives a shit. Make short barreled rifles and sell them to the local outlaw motorcycle club and you have problems....

You have a lot more faith in the current or next possible anti-gun Democrat Attorney General then I do.

The 70 year old guy is an easier target for law enforcement and prosecutors because he probably has money in his name in the bank, many other assets, will probably confess to what he did, and he is unlikely to hurt police and prosecutors when they go to arrest and prosecute. Easy way to get money and a conviction for the task force and the court.

Whereas, many of the gang bangers probably have nothing to their name in any bank accounts, no assets that can be found, probably don't have any guns papered to them, probably will take the 5th and not talk to the police, and are likely to be very violent when trying to arrest and prosecute.

The 70 year old guy is an easier target, especially if the task force is looking for an easy arrest, an easy conviction and assets to go after. This is something in which a local District Attorney may (and I emphasize may as they are not all trustworthy) be able to be trusted to go after the gang banger instead of the 70 year old guy. I would not trust an anti-gun Democrat Attorney General to get it right as the 70 year old is a lot easier target. Look at the Biden administration targeting gun collectors that might of sold one one gun too many by whatever ATF's rubric is today for unlicensed dealing in firearms. Don't worry, they'll make up some narrative to paint the 70 year old as a very bad guy.

[ar15jules]

You have a lot more faith in the current or next possible anti-gun Democrat Attorney General then I do.

The 70 year old guy is an easier target for law enforcement and prosecutors because he probably has money in his name in the bank, many other assets, will probably confess to what he did, and he is unlikely to hurt police and prosecutors when they go to arrest and prosecute. Easy way to get money and a conviction for the task force and the court.

Whereas, many of the gang bangers probably have nothing to their name in any bank accounts, no assets that can be found, probably don't have any guns papered to them, probably will take the 5th and not talk to the police, and are likely to be very violent when trying to arrest and prosecute.

The 70 year old guy is an easier target, especially if the task force is looking for an easy arrest, an easy conviction and assets to go after. This is something in which a local District Attorney may (and I emphasize may as they are not all trustworthy) be able to be trusted to go after the gang banger instead of the 70 year old guy. I would not trust an anti-gun Democrat Attorney General to get it right as the 70 year old is a lot easier target. Look at the Biden administration targeting gun collectors that might of sold one one gun too many by whatever ATF's rubric is today for unlicensed dealing in firearms. Don't worry, they'll make up some narrative to paint the 70 year old as a very bad guy.

Not the case at all. I have to agree to disagree with you.

[ar15jules]

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...sed-in-crimes/

Summary...20 plus strawed firearms

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...ests-of-4-men/

Summary...30 plus strawed firearms

https://phillyda.org/news/dao-gun-vi...nvestigations/

Summary more than two dozen strawed firearms and a shooting

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...ling-firearms/

Summary...another 20 plus strawed firearms

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/new...e-ag-says.html

Summary 94 strawed firearms....

Just a few examples of the types of cases that seem to be the focus of such task forces

[Mosinshooter762]

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...sed-in-crimes/

Summary...20 plus strawed firearms

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...ests-of-4-men/

Summary...30 plus strawed firearms

https://phillyda.org/news/dao-gun-vi...nvestigations/

Summary more than two dozen strawed firearms and a shooting

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taki...ling-firearms/

Summary...another 20 plus strawed firearms

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/new...e-ag-says.html

Summary 94 strawed firearms....

Just a few examples of the types of cases that seem to be the focus of such task forces

This is what is put out there to grab headlines. But what is the typical run of the mill case? Gunlawyer001 and other attorneys maybe able to chime in on this. I'm sure you may find those you think deserve to be charged but there are many others you may find that involve people who are not dangerous and are good people who may of made a mistake. In fact, some of the examples you give are not necessarily illegal conduct in other states. Pennsylvania law enforcement seems to use the term 'straw purchase' for any private sale of a handgun (or certain other Section 6102 firearms) that are not done through a dealer or county sheriff.

Unlicensed dealing, which has been a hot topic of the Biden administration, and/or selling to individuals in a prohibited category maybe charged by the Federal government or in other states for some of these cases instead. I'll concede that I guess it is better to more strictly enforce bad existing laws then to pass even worse new ones. The case examples you give maybe good examples of this. We have to remember though that at the end of the day these existing bad laws are still gun control and while it remains to be seen, it is likely that most of these restrictions do not pass the constitutional scrutiny required by the 2nd Amendment, as it has been interpreted by the United States Supreme Court.

A lawyer gave an example of a case he was involved with in which a man shot a home intruder. It was apparent that the defender was justified and it seemed as if the case was open and shut. However, the defender told the police that a friend had loaned him the handgun he had used to defend himself with. The friend who loaned him the handgun was charged with a violation of the Uniforms Firearms Act.

Another case I am aware of is where a man had firearms in a locked room. Somehow his teenage son and the son's friend got into the room and took pictures of themselves holding a pistol. These pictures got disseminated among others and eventually got sent to the police. The father made the mistake of talking to the police and confirmed that it was an operable firearm as per Section 6102 (pistol with a barrel length less then 15 inches or less than 26 inches in overall length) and his son and friend was not under his or another adult's supervision engaged in a lawful activity when these pictures were taken.

The son was charged as a juvenile delinquent with 18 Pa.C.S. 6110.1. My understanding is with dad's admission that it was an operable firearm (pistol with a barrel length less then 15 inches or less than 26 inches in overall length) and that the son was not engaged in a lawful activity under the supervision of an adult, that the son was advised to admit guilt and was adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent. The statute is so broad in prohibiting minors with firearms that it is not clear that it is legal, in and of itself, for a minor to take a photo with or even hold a firearm, even with parental supervision, if it is not connected to any of the enumerated exceptions. How many minors could be said to be in constructive possession of firearms in the home and be charged as juvenile delinquents? These types of cases happen every day. This is the reality of gun control.

The definition of firearm in Section 6102 and the Possession of firearm by minor statute reads as follows:

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/L...1.002.000..HTM
§ 6102. Definitions.

Subject to additional definitions contained in subsequent provisions of this subchapter which are applicable to specific provisions of this subchapter, the following words and phrases, when used in this subchapter shall have, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise, the meanings given to them in this section:
...
"Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.
...

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/L...1.010.001..HTM
§ 6110.1. Possession of firearm by minor.

(a) Firearm.--Except as provided in subsection (b), a person under 18 years of age shall not possess or transport a firearm anywhere in this Commonwealth.

(b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to a person under 18 years of age:

(1) who is under the supervision of a parent, grandparent, legal guardian or an adult acting with the expressed consent of the minor's custodial parent or legal guardian and the minor is engaged in lawful activity, including safety training, lawful target shooting, engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or the firearm is unloaded and the minor is transporting it for a lawful purpose; or

(2) who is lawfully hunting or trapping in accordance with 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).

(c) Responsibility of adult.--Any person who knowingly and intentionally delivers or provides to the minor a firearm in violation of subsection (a) commits a felony of the third degree.

(d) Forfeiture.--Any firearm in the possession of a person under 18 years of age in violation of this section shall be promptly seized by the arresting law enforcement officer and upon conviction or adjudication of delinquency shall be forfeited or, if stolen, returned to the lawful owner.

(June 13, 1995, 1st Sp.Sess., P.L.1024, No.17, eff. 120 days; Nov. 22, 1995, P.L.621, No.66, eff. imd.)