VFG on AR Pistol

**Will3212** · March 21st, 2024, 04:52 PM

I have an 11.5" Sig Tread AR pistol with a pistol brace. My question is can I put a Sig verticle foregrip on the mlok hand guard to better control my shots?

Some are saying no because it's a pistol, only angled foregrips are allowed.

Others are saying because the gun is over 26" due to the 11.5" barrel, it's considered a "firearm", and a verticle fore grip is completely legal.

Can anyone confirm?

**Xringshooter** · March 21st, 2024, 05:51 PM

If it was transferred to you as a pistol on the ATF Form 4473 and the SP4-113 (PICS Form) then it is a pistol and you cannot have a vertical hand grip on it. Angled yes, vertical no.

**Gunsnwater** · March 21st, 2024, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Xringshooter

If it was transferred to you as a pistol on the ATF Form 4473 and the SP4-113 (PICS Form) then it is a pistol and you cannot have a vertical hand grip on it. Angled yes, vertical no.

Something I've wondered about is if a 90* grip were mounted horizontal like a sten mag would that be legal? I never saw this question addressed before.

**Will3212** · March 21st, 2024, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Xringshooter

If it was transferred to you as a pistol on the ATF Form 4473 and the SP4-113 (PICS Form) then it is a pistol and you cannot have a vertical hand grip on it. Angled yes, vertical no.

It was transferred to me as a pistol, however, I changed out the lower receiver to a receiver that was not transferred to me as a pistol.

**bogey1** · March 21st, 2024, 10:09 PM

Wouldn't that be a AOW? I unregistered my olympic arms ar pistol with the tango down grip on it so I can sell it easier.

**arjohnson** · March 21st, 2024, 10:18 PM

Adding a vertical grip turns it into an AOW.

**knight0334** · March 21st, 2024, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Will3212

It was transferred to me as a pistol, however, I changed out the lower receiver to a receiver that was not transferred to me as a pistol.

That doesn't matter. What matters is what federal law considers the present build status. If it is a handgun and if you put a vertical forward grip on it - it becomes an AOW. ...an NFA device.

**buckengr** · March 21st, 2024, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Will3212

Others are saying because the gun is over 26" due to the 11.5" barrel, it's considered a "firearm", and a verticle fore grip is completely legal.

This is correct. Present configuration is what matters, not what was checked on the 4473.

If it has a rifled bore, the overall length is > 26" and it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is a "firearm" when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

It is not a machinegun because it is not capable of firing more than one round per single function of the trigger.

It is not a destructive device because it is not chambered for a cartridge with a bore over 1/2".

It is not a shotgun because it has a rifled bore, does not fire a shotshell, and is not designed to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBS for the same reason.

It is not a rifle because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBR for the same reason.

It is not a pistol because in this case it WOULD have a second vertical grip which would mean it is intended to be fired with two hands.

It is not an AOW because the overall length is >26" which is the constraint that the ATF uses to determine whether a firearm that doesn't meet any of the other criteria is "concealable".

So provided that the lower you are using was not INITIALLY assembled as a complete rifle, it would not fall under the weapon made from rifle criteria which would require registration as an SBR. Therefore the firearm you describe would be considered simply a firearm when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

This assumes, once again, that the overall length IS INDEED over 26".

**JaySmith** · March 21st, 2024, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by buckengr

This is correct. Present configuration is what matters, not what was checked on the 4473.

If it has a rifled bore, the overall length is > 26" and it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is a "firearm" when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

It is not a rifle because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBR for the same reason.

It is not a pistol because in this case it WOULD have a second vertical grip which would mean it is intended to be fired with two hands.

It is not an AOW because the overall length is >26" which is the constraint that the ATF uses to determine whether a firearm that doesn't meet any of the other criteria is "concealable".

So provided that the lower you are using was not INITIALLY assembled as a complete rifle, it would not fall under the weapon made from rifle criteria which would require registration as an SBR. Therefore the firearm you describe would be considered simply a firearm when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

This assumes, once again, that the overall length IS INDEED over 26".

I wouldn't want to argue that with the RSO who's calling his ATF buddies when you fail to produce a stamp trying to talk about something he does not understand.

If you're in public play by their rules. Do what you want in the privacy of your own home.

**buckengr** · March 22nd, 2024, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by JaySmith

I wouldn't want to argue that with the RSO who's calling his ATF buddies when you fail to produce a stamp trying to talk about something he does not understand.

If you're in public play by their rules. Do what you want in the privacy of your own home.

That's fine. But that is the letter of the law. I understand that ATF and fudds have no clue. But that is the correct set of criteria to evaluate in order.

Edit: see my updated post with all classification criteria from Federal statutes.