VFG on AR Pistol

[Krichardson]

I wouldn't want to argue that with the RSO who's calling his ATF buddies when you fail to produce a stamp trying to talk about something he does not understand.

Damn,do the range officers really get that bitchy?

[JaySmith]

That's fine. But that is the letter of the law. I understand that ATF and fudds have no clue. But that is the correct set of criteria to evaluate in order.

Edit: see my updated post with all classification criteria from Federal statutes.

I think in the past couple years we've seen countless examples of the ATF and fudds doing whatever they want. Even if you survive the encounter, and the resulting legal battle, which could stretch for years, at the end of the day they will be fine but you will be broke, and broken.

I get everyone has their hill to die on, but for me a vfg on a firearm that was bought as a pistol then slightly changed to find a loophole then take it to a public range where a fudd ruins your day/week/month/year is not that hill.

[JaySmith]

Damn,do the range officers really get that bitchy?

It depends on the range and on the fudd. Some fudd gave me shit and called the rso for more than 5 rounds in the mag.

[Krichardson]

It depends on the range and on the fudd. Some fudd gave me shit and called the rso for more than 5 rounds in the mag.

Good grief!

[markshere2]

Adding a vertical grip turns it into an AOW.

Yes. Put an angled foregrip on it. Problem solved.
angled foregrips.jpg

[RockIsland]

Stick this on the bottom of your rail and you'll be just fine.

[Will3212]

This is correct. Present configuration is what matters, not what was checked on the 4473.

If it has a rifled bore, the overall length is > 26" and it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is a "firearm" when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

It is not a machinegun because it is not capable of firing more than one round per single function of the trigger.

It is not a destructive device because it is not chambered for a cartridge with a bore over 1/2".

It is not a shotgun because it has a rifled bore, does not fire a shotshell, and is not designed to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBS for the same reason.

It is not a rifle because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBR for the same reason.

It is not a pistol because in this case it WOULD have a second vertical grip which would mean it is intended to be fired with two hands.

It is not an AOW because the overall length is >26" which is the constraint that the ATF uses to determine whether a firearm that doesn't meet any of the other criteria is "concealable".

So provided that the lower you are using was not INITIALLY assembled as a complete rifle, it would not fall under the weapon made from rifle criteria which would require registration as an SBR. Therefore the firearm you describe would be considered simply a firearm when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

This assumes, once again, that the overall length IS INDEED over 26".

Thankyou for the reply, and overall length in PA and federal law is measured from the tip of the threaded barrel(not including muzzle device), to the end of the mil spec buffer tube, is that correct?

[USMC3531]

Not that letters mean much but franklin armory was selling a 26"+ ar without stock and with a vfg and had an approval letter.

[Will3212]

This is correct. Present configuration is what matters, not what was checked on the 4473.

If it has a rifled bore, the overall length is > 26" and it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is a "firearm" when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

It is not a machinegun because it is not capable of firing more than one round per single function of the trigger.

It is not a destructive device because it is not chambered for a cartridge with a bore over 1/2".

It is not a shotgun because it has a rifled bore, does not fire a shotshell, and is not designed to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBS for the same reason.

It is not a rifle because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder -- nor is it an SBR for the same reason.

It is not a pistol because in this case it WOULD have a second vertical grip which would mean it is intended to be fired with two hands.

It is not an AOW because the overall length is >26" which is the constraint that the ATF uses to determine whether a firearm that doesn't meet any of the other criteria is "concealable".

So provided that the lower you are using was not INITIALLY assembled as a complete rifle, it would not fall under the weapon made from rifle criteria which would require registration as an SBR. Therefore the firearm you describe would be considered simply a firearm when equipped with a vertical foregrip.

This assumes, once again, that the overall length IS INDEED over 26".

Thanks for the reply, just to confirm, OAL would be measured from the end of the threaded barrel to the end of the buffer tube is that correct? Or is the pistol brace included?

[USMC3531]

Thanks for the reply, just to confirm, OAL would be measured from the end of the threaded barrel to the end of the buffer tube is that correct? Or is the pistol brace included?

Dont count the brace, and if not an ar15 dont count the buffertube